This week on “The Liberty Action Alert with Greg Seltz,” join Dr. Seltz and his guest, Rear Admiral Gregory Todd, Chief of Chaplains, talking “spiritual readiness” for those in combat and the vitality of faith in public leadership and service. Note too, the uniqueness of the differentiation of the Chaplains as a serving force among the soldiers, the fighting force, and the healthy paradigm for all tensions between “Church and State” issues. Listen in for the political, the cultural, the moral, and the faith perspective on this vital topic for you and those whom you love. See how, even in these times, we are empowered to be God’s people for others. And be challenged along with us as we continue to grow in the wisdom needed to be 2 Kingdom citizens for the country we love. Join us!
Transcript
Welcome to Liberty Action Alert with Greg Sells, sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty here in Washington, DC a program that cuts through the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to Kingdom citizenship, bold, biblical principles for a robust public Christian life. And now your host, Dr. Greg Sells.
Good day, Good day, Washington, DC and friends of the program all around the country. I'm Greg Seltz. Welcome to Liberty Action Alert, where every week we try to cut through the noise and take on the issues, especially the public issues that matter to you people of faith. Today in our program we have Gregory Todd, a United States Navy rear Admiral and chaplain who serves as the 28th chief of Chaplains of the United States Navy, and also a, a good friend. Welcome, Admiral Todd.
It's great to be here, Greg. Thanks for having me on.
Well, Greg, listen, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, uh, have you on the program, is to talk about religious liberty, the importance of spiritual readiness, even for those, uh, who serve well, especially for those who serve in our fighting forces. But I would say even for those who serve in public office, and then why the chaplain see's a great example of that vital relationship between church and state. But before we get to that, you know, let's just talk about your military career, your latest charge as chief of chaplains. Why do you wanna do this? What motivated such service? And I think it goes all the way back to 86, doesn't it?
Yeah. Yeah. That's a long time. Right? Well, you know, uh, it, it did go back to seminary back in 86. I became interested in chaplaincy, particularly Navy chaplaincy. I grew up in Seattle, so Okay. Uh, always in love with the sea. We always had boats, you know, So for me, being on the water was ideal. And so when we were in seminary, the opportunity for Navy chaplaincy kind of became a thing for me. Okay. And so I got involved in this student program, but you know, you know how it is when you're trying something new, you kind of are tentative to it. So I was a little teve. I thought I'd give it a try and see how it goes. And I gotta tell you, my, my first experience with Navy Chaplain School, and I'm very transparent about this, I did not have a good time.
Oh, okay. It was, uh, so classroom focused. It was talking about policy and bureaucracy and all that kind of thing. And I thought, Okay, this is not, this is not me. I'm not into that. Right. And I've eventually gotten that point, but at that point in my life was not me
It's not bureaucratic. Right.
Yeah.
And it was such a great experience for me because it was very transparent. It was just, you got who you got and these guys were so open about who they were, and yet very open to the gospel. And so that became very attractive for me. But I, you know, I needed some experience in the parish. So I did a couple years at I u Carbondale at campus pastor there, and then four years at a little parish, not so little parish, actually then southern Illinois with the parochial school and, and loved it there with them as well. But it just, the whole opportunity for ministry in the military just kept coming up again and coming up again. And that sense of calling, you know how it is with calling. Yeah, sure. Doesn't, you know, the Lord doesn't let up. Right. And I talked to a pastor buddy of mine who had been a Vietnam vet and had served, of course, served in combat in Vietnam.
And I asked for counsel, I said, Hey, help me with this one. I'm really not sure what to do. And he gave me some great counsel. He said, You know, there aren't a lot of people who have the demeanor to serve as military chaplains, and you seem to have it. Maybe you should listen to the Lord on this one. Okay. And sure enough, so when I submitted my paperwork to come on active duty, I, um, uh, got received like within three weeks I'm getting a call from the Navy. And by the way, nothing in the Navy happens in three weeks
Well, and, and your service, uh, the chaplaincy is so important to our military. And that's why I wanted to have you on to talk about the guidance that you, that you just, uh, put out. And you talked about the North star being, um, spiritual readiness so that people can serve with courage and honor. But I also think it's a great example of the necessity, a a necessary relationship between church and state that really goes to the heart even of our culture. But talk a little bit about that, um, you know, spiritual readiness. Why is that so important?
Yeah, that's, that's a great question. Particularly when we are facing some, some very dangerous times, right? And our military members are being called upon, Well, of course, for the last 20 years, they are in war, but the future does not look safe either. Right? And so, is it enough to have just the right weapons? Is it enough to have, you know, the ships that we need? Mm-hmm.
Not amazing. That
That's just part of who they are as a person, mind, body, spirit. In fact, at the Navy Bootcamp, we teach that triad to them, you have mind, body, soul, and that they need to be attentive to the soul. Now, of course, within that bureaucracy, we can't say, and now you must be a Christian. Right? Um, because we're giving this, this training to everyone, and yet we're trying to create an environment where these kind of conversations can have, can happen so that, you know, a Lutheran chaplain, a Christian chaplain, a Jewish chaplain even, even can have a very transparent conversation about their faith to try to, to mentor, to, to coach these young people into really something that wow, we've lost over the last 20 years that that real sense of what it means to be spiritually ready.
Yeah. And, and you know, for me, uh, I think why this is so important, cause I know what hits the military, what hits the chaplaincy is probably gonna hit the church eventually too, if it gets through you guys and gals. But, you know, I was even thinking about what you just said. They, they did a re research about all the service organizations in Philadelphia, and they found out that like three quarters of them are being done by nonprofits and by churches and people like that. And if you gutted those things, if you tore 'em out, there's no secular group that's gonna come and replace it because those people were doing it for a lot less money, mostly because they felt like they were called to do it. And so, like you said, if you don't understand the soul's motivation for why you have to defend our country or defend what's, what's right, well why do it? And then you also have to think through the moral limitations. You know, there's some moral limitations to what you guys should and shouldn't be doing. And that's also part of our spirit.
itary. It's been around since:Well, what I love about what you're talking about too, though, is our founding fathers did understand that whoever carries the swords gotta be limited. And that's why the Judeo Christian worldview, the biblical worldview, has been a necessary structure to this because it puts kind of all this in its proper place. Even if you're not a Christian, this, this can be a good thing. Cuz church and state have, have a relationship to each other. And we see it in the chaplaincy in the military. Now, the, let's, let me see if I say this correctly though. If you, if you're a chaplain, you're in the battle, you're in the middle of the field with those who serve. You just don't have a gun.
That's right. Well, that's
Right. Someone's standing next to you with a gun now. Right?
e I can be. I'm surrounded by:Well, so we obviously, just by being a chaplain in the midst of the battle, you, you demonstrate that trust. But then you also, and I love this next part about what you were talking about in your guidance, You, you, you feel, and you know that those lives that you serve are entrusted to you. And, and that's also a different thing. It's not just a job and it's not just an adventure. It may be all that, but it's a calling. And so talk about why this, you talk about spiritual mentorship and I love that because in urban ministry I used to think the same way. But tell me what, what do you mean by spiritual mentorship in your role as a chaplain with our fighting forces?
Yeah, that's, that's really big for me in terms of leadership and really a place where we can grow. You know, a lot of what chaplains do is drawing alongside the warrior and walking with them through the challenges that they're facing. You mentioned it. We were, we're out in the field with them. We're on the ships with them. We're not waiting in the chapels, we're not waiting in the churches for them to come back. We're there with them so that we can walk with them and talk with them through some of the challenges that they're facing. And this is sometimes a coaching piece, sometimes a mentoring piece. But it, I like to refer to it as it's, it's like paralysis. You know, we used to talk about, you know, the para cleat, and if you take that Greek apart, that's being called alongside Longside. Right? And so there we are, chaplains are called alongside the warrior as they are doing some of the most difficult things that they've ever had to do. And yet, uh, with a, with a trust and a sense of the divine, they're able to get through that. You know, my goal is that when we send people off to combat, I mean, these are Americans, America's treasures, Right? Or sons and daughters, Right. And they're entrusted to us that we allow them to do their job and they not lose their soul in the process.
I was gonna go there next, because I ne, while I've never served as a chaplain in the military, I worked a lot with law enforcement, had a lot of police officers in my congregations where if I've served, and one of the hardest things we always had to deal with, let's say they had to use force to stop a situation. And when you look in the books, it was the right thing to do. But it was, in their minds, it was a lesser of two evils. But they had to do it and they just couldn't come to grips with it. And I finally said, Yeah, cuz it's the whole role that you face is you're the last, I mean, you're the last, uh, barrier to chaos. And, and so you executed force in a sinful world, but now you, you still gotta go to the cross because you feel you need forgiveness even for doing your job. Wow. So what a position to be in, right? I mean, you just talked about losing your soul to do what, to do what you're commissioned and ordered to do. Yeah.
And that's really what's been driving me. You know, I came in for the adventure of it, okay. But really after nine 11, i, it's gotten under my skin in terms of, it's, it's not so much about adventure now, is it just a passion to care for the souls of the warriors because of what they are putting on the line for us, it becomes very, oh gosh, it becomes just very personal. Because you realize here, this 19 year old 20 year old kid has joined the military and he is putting himself on or herself on the line for the sake of our neighborhood, my family, our nation. It just becomes very personal. And you go, Okay, what do I gotta do to take care of this warrior so that they can come home to their parents, to their loved ones and still be whole in the process?
Right? Wow, that's an important work. And I, I guess maybe that's one of the reasons I'm in Washington, uh, with you now. I'm, we're nearby. It's because I feel like our voice in the public square is so vital too, because there's a soullessness about what's going on a lot in our culture today. And we definitely wanna prevent that from inhabiting our military because the last thing you want is a soulless military executing force around the world. Um,
Well, the good news, Greg, the military, at least on the Navy Department of the Navy, which includes the Navy and the Marine Corps, they're asking for more chaplains. Is that right? My biggest challenge in the next couple of years, I gotta recruit a lot more chaplains. Okay. And so this is a great, this is a good news story. It's gonna be a lot of work for us, but it tells us that the military recognizes the value of chaplaincy and they want more. So, uh, we're looking for, we're looking for volunteers. The name means hiring chaplains.
Well, well, when I speak to a lot of our people, I'm gonna make sure that they know that. Because again, like you said, um, in the middle, you know, on the edges of things or on the street of things, when the gospel is there, when the good news of God at work in the world is there, that does dramatically change everything. And I think you're a great, your work is a great example to that. So finally, what, what are the big challenges? Well, you just talked about one, the big challenges of your office at the moment, getting more chaplains. I need more. Um, but what are some of the other challenges, maybe even opportunities that, that you're facing right now?
Yeah, I think to help leaders understand this whole idea of the pursuit of virtue, the pursuit of, uh, well back to the Declaration of Independence, the pursuit of happiness. You know, if we go back to the ancient philosophers, the pursuit of happiness, the pursuit of dy is the happiness that comes from the pursuit of virtue. Right? And so we're really getting that, we're getting after that with the warriors, with the leaders, that this is not a new idea. This pursuit of character virtue, meaning, purpose, values, this is part of what it means to be an American, right? And so we need to go back to that as leaders, as military leaders, to encourage that pursuit of virtue within the military. And it's hard. There's a, it's, it is the public square. Let's not make any bones about it. It's a tough environment. You gotta keep swinging.
Yeah. Because again, when you look at our culture, and I've served in urban industry all my life, so, you know, it's the same kind of thing. What's the biggest issues in urban? It's really the dis dismantling of the family, which is cause all kinds of chaos in the culture. And now we're now their children growing up who don't even know what virtue is. They think of happiness as a self-centered selfish pursuit, and they don't understand. That comes unraveled very, very, very quickly. And, and that's what we're seeing. So how do we turn this culture away from that pursuit back to an honorable self-governing pursuit of virtue and happiness for the sake of others? And I think you're already starting with the people that God sends you, uh, in the military. So maybe the chaplaincy, maybe we need to learn from you.
Well, it, you know, it is, it begins with talking with leaders and I gotta say all the leaders, uh, it, it across all three C services. Okay? And the Secretary of the Navy have all been supportive. They've all voiced their, their support. And I'm appreciative for it. It just, you know, we just gotta keep swinging. We've gotta keep staying in the fight and get more chaplains because it's a righteous cause take care of these young people that are serving in the military.
Now, uh, I don't know if there's any political, I mean, are is, is the politics, is that something you've gotta deal with all the time? I mean, do you, you know, is that, do, do you think that our culture still under understands the value of the chaplaincy? Where do we battle that? Is that battled out here?
Yeah, it, it's battled in conversation.
Okay.
You know, the reality of it is the military is a reflection of what's going on in society, right. And so it really requires a very robust conversation and a, an ability to engage at a very high level, right? And so we need, again, we need more, but we need people who aren't afraid of the conversation. So you gotta be able to take a few knocks in the public square and still keep coming back. Uh, but it's worth it. It's,
I love, I love what you just said because when I was training urban, because like I I said, I've been an urban pastor and I've trained urban pastors and we used to call them and, and for, I don't know, for lack of a better term, but, um, we didn't, many mean we were never trying to diminish the Navy seals, but we called them Navy Seals for Christ. And what we meant by that was you're the kind of person when we drop you into the middle of the town square in Los Angeles, you will stay there and accomplish the, the mission that you were called to, to do. Cuz no Navy Seal would ever say, Well this is what happened. So that's why I quit. You know, that just, that just isn't in their mindset. Right. You know, Do what yeah. What our phrase was, Don't tell me what you can't do. Tell me what you can do and do it until the Lord takes you off the field. You know? Right. And that's the mindset you're talking about here, because that's the spiritual engagement of all these issues. And I think we've lost that adventure for that a little bit, even among our clergy. Maybe we gotta start encouraging each other a little bit more too. Right?
Oh, there's no, it was plenty of room for that
Okay. Well the other thing too is, uh, you know, our lcr we, we support you like crazy. I mean, uh, we work with the chaplaincy obvi obviously in our church, um, but with you too. But how can our listeners who are listening in right now, how can they be of service to you? Uh, obviously they'll be praying for you in your work. Are there any other ways that we can get to know more about what you're up to or, or can be, uh, of service to you?
Yeah, I would, I would say prayer number one. We definitely need the prayers and we feel it. So thank you for the prayers. Our LCMS ministry to the Armed Forces is doing great work, uh, connecting with them. They become the arm through which they support chaplains, but also they support congregations that are close to military installations. I gotcha. And help them know how to engage with military, uh, service members and their families. It's, it's a lonely business for these young guys who, young guys and gals who join the military, Okay. And they're away from home. They're often very vulnerable. It's great to get them connected to that local church. And sometimes it means giving 'em a ride to church. Sometimes it means baking them cookies when they need 'em, right? Sometimes it just is simply connecting with them. So that kind of thing is really important.
And then I would say the mystery, the armed forces also reaches out to our veterans, the ones who are still carrying the scars of war. And those are people too that we need to keep in, in mind, you know, with 20 years of war with O I F O E F and there's a lot of folks that are still trying to make sense of their experience, trying to find meaning in it. And so the connection with veterans is also super important. And so we have some ministries in that regard as well. But ministries of the armed forces, they do tremendous work, really, uh, just a great group of folks that are just so super supportive and we're just so thankful for 'em as chaplains.
Well, we'll direct them to those resources. And I, I served in Tampa when I was a pastor and we were there with sentcom and, and we actually served many folks who were embedded into, uh, you know, to places for months and months and months in service. And, and I remember those same things. You were exactly right. The families needed our care and concern and then especially when people return so well, Greg, again, thank you for this time to tell us a little bit about what you're doing and why it's so important. And thank you for modeling for us how to engage, uh, these church state issues cuz the chaplaincy on the front lines of that as well. Thanks for being with us. Hey, thank you Greg. Really appreciate the time. Thanks for tuning in today. To get to know our lc LDC work better, check out our website@lclfreedom.org. Contain, there are resources to empower your public square dynamic discipleship. Till next time, God bless you always. I'm Greg Sells. Have a great week.
You've been listening to Liberty Action Alert with Greg Seltz, executive director of the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty in Washington dc. This program has been brought to you by the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty.