Liberty Alert With Rev. Dr. Gregory Seltz

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

Welcome to the Liberty alert with Gregory. Seltz sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran center for religious liberties here in Washington, DC, a program that cuts through the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to kingdom, citizenship, old biblical principles for a robust public Christian life. And now your host, Dr. Gregory SELs,

Good day, good day, Washington DC, and friends of the Liberty alert all across the country. I'm Dr. Gregory SELs. Welcome to our program where every week we take on the issues that matter to people of faith, and one of the places where the culture war, if you wanna use that kind of terminology, the culture

War

Is raging is in our military, the, the secularization of our military and using the military, almost like a Petri dish for cultural issues, which is not what the military's supposed to be. It's supposed to be our defensive fighting force for the sake of all people. But right now, religious Liberty is a huge issue there. I mean, people are losing their commission for instance, over the VAX mandates. We've talked about that in this program, and people are also being punished, both service people, as well as the chapel and being punished for holding traditional values, concerning things like marriage or sexual practice or any of those kinds of things. So today we are privileged to have on, uh, the program, the director of the ministry to the armed forces of the Luther church, miss Missouri, Senate chaplain, Craig Mueller. And I know that you're a retired captain, but how do, how do they, are you still chapter? Are you chaplain or are you director Mueller now? And

Well, most people just call me chaplain. Yeah. kinda that culture, you know, what's in the Navy, you're always in the Navy,

I guess once in the Navy, always in the Navy, I like hearing Craig, it's great to be with you. And, you know, we go back ways and, and I really do appreciate the work that you do. I love the, of the chaplaincy in the military. I think it goes to the heart of the question again, of the limits of the state, you know, science, politics, economics, and even winning wars. None of that ultimately saves us. And that's why there's this thing called the Providence of God, the moral demands of God, and even the grace of God that transcends all of that. And I think the tradition of the chaplaincy, our founding fathers, they were actually illustrating that as they, as they put chaplains to work amid some of the most difficult things. So tell us, why do guys do this? Why do they, why do they become a part of this? Uh, so they can be in the midst of the battle, but with no weapons.

Well, thanks, Craig. I think, uh, what you hit on it is just amazing when you say, think about how the military in our government, you know, with all the confusion now about the first amendment, you know, the, the government overreach or not overreach, how we've worked so well with chaplains in the military and been able to walk that line, uh, very carefully. And as you just mentioned, it's a, I have one of my generals who always said he kept his lawyer, his JAG judge advocate, general close, and is chaplain closer.

I like that.

Yeah, because he says sometimes even the law of war allows it. It might not be the moral thing to do, right. Sometimes it may be legal and I'll stay out of jail, but may be, we should, uh, talk about, as you mentioned, the spirituality, the moral, the right thing to do in some situations. So it's really kind of cool how the military has been able to, to have the chaplains where both devices, you know, the, the religious insignia on one collar, and then they rank on the other and to truly work that pluralistic environment of quad operate without compromise, being able to, you know, basically do what you do as a chaplain, provide spiritual care, um, and follow the tenets of your faith, your religious, uh, organization. So I think that's why I did it too. I think it's, uh, when I signed up to be a Navy chaplain, you know, I was a small preacher's I always joke and say, I'm really a theologians offspring. Okay. Think it sound much more cool. You know, outta, outta South Dakota, five sisters, brothers, just the typical rural America Luther upbringing, right. Pretty sheltered life. Never seen the ocean, never flew in an airplane. And, uh, you know, my predecesors been of years ago came to the seminary at St. Louis when I was there and, uh, talked about this kind of ministry. I thought this was really cool. You know, what a way to serve your country and God and the eternal youth group, if you will.

Yeah. Well, you know, you know, you think about the medics in, in, uh, the military too. I mean, they're running around trying to heal bodies that are in the midst, the battle, and you guys are the spiritual medics. I mean, that's who you guys are and, you know, you're much more than the father. Okay. He's kind of sitting, you know, back in the tent, you're the spiritual medics that are coming to the aid of the people you serve.

Absolutely. That's. I mean, we, we we're right with them wherever they are. And again, that's all because of what we've survived, all these constitutional and lo legal challenges, because it's the re free exercise of our, our service members. They have the right, the religious Liberty that our constitution protects. They don't hang it up at the door when they join, you know, when they go to bootcamp or officer candidate school or the academies, they don't hang up their faith and say, now neutral, I'm secular. You know, they still are American citizens with their first amendment rights to worship, according to the tenants of their faith. And, uh, that's what chaplains do you know for the commanders to make sure that that happens

Well. And, you know, I like to say that you guys are the front line for those of us in the religious Liberty battles, too, because if the chaplains can pro properly differentiate these things and still, uh, strive for excellence and make sure that combat readiness is not affected and all those different things, uh, if, if they can maintain that religious Liberty there, then, then the culture probably survives these challenges too. But if you guys get knuckled under, I think the, the next wave of that hits our, our preschools, our schools, and then ultimately our churches. And I think you guys are, are, you've signed off on an Amicus brief with the coach Kennedy case. Is that correct? That's one of the ways where you are in the battle with us. So talk a little bit about that.

Sure. Yeah. For chapel Alliance for religious liberties organization, that I'm a member of, but there's several endorsers, uh, who are members of this, and this is one of those cooperate without compromise. We're all about religious Liberty for all people. That's what our emphasis is on. And so we were asked to, for an Abacus brief on the coach Kennedy case, because, um, it's obviously the law lawyers can detail it much better than I can, but the slippery slope idea that if a government official can't take a knee at the 50 yard line and pray on his own and others can't join him on their own voluntarily, you know, what's, is that a small leap to say, what about a bunch of soldiers about ready to go on patrol? There's no chaplain available. So the senior, uh, person on the ground takes a knee and says, Hey, I'm gonna pray if you guys wanna join me, that'd be great. And they can say, well, you're a higher rank. So that's UE influence. You're, , you're forcing me to pray or something like that. You know? So there's always that slippery slope, if we're trying to regulate people's religious liberties, you know, to the ability to, to pray to their God, you know, in important their faith. And so, you know, we, you know, some people say, well, maybe that's a strong leap, but I think it's, you know, it is a slippery slope

And people don't understand the, the church actually functions as a curve of the state's power for the sake of you as an individual. And so, like you said, that doesn't mean we don't serve anybody, uh, who comes into our tent, but that means is we also, uh, have an integrity in our service. Right?

Absolutely. And I think the way you said it, you know, I'll steal the Navy's version of it, but all service branches have it is that we, we provide for our own. We certainly do. You know, I'm a Lutheran pastor when I was on active duty. So I provided Luther, uh, divine services, but I also, as a Protestant in their definition, we provide Christian Bible studies. So that's provision piece. Okay. But in my side of a thousand Marines, you know, I have a whole diversity. So I make sure the Catholic kids are able to go to the priests or the priests can come to them. The Mormons, uh, the Mor the Muslim, the, the, uh, Jewish Marines. That's what it's all about. Facilitate for others to make that they have the free exercise of religion without compromising mine, or pretending to be, you know what, I'm not what I'm not, but to get on your point, too, Greg, I think is also, but there's a lot of those who may have no faith at all, or not very active, but we care for all, anybody that walks into our chaplain's office is treating with dignity and respect, love, and care, and we'll provide whatever we can to make sure, uh, that they're taken care of without compromising, you know, my integrity, you know, my religious conscience or ordination vows, if you will, if that, for us, at least that's a, an important piece of that.

Yeah. And, you know, that's what, and I wish I could explain to the church out there. A lot of these issues that we're gonna now talk about are couched in terms of love and care. And we, we have no problem loving and caring to whatever degree we can for people, but there's a political aspect of this now. And so in things like the gender issues and the middle, there's a political dimension now, where if you don't espouse a certain issue, or if you don't espouse it a certain way, you will not be able to be the chaplain in, in service to people. And in some sense, uh, that's what we're seeing with the VAX mandates or the gender issues we're beginning to hear. Well, if you don't adhere to this way of thinking about marriage or this way of thinking about sexuality, uh, then you cannot serve no matter whom you're serving. And I think that's, that's what we're fighting against. We're fighting against the permission to be in the mix. Right?

Absolutely. And I think that, you know, obviously, uh, it's not quite in the news anymore with our whole situation with Ukraine and, and so forth. But as you mentioned, the vaccination issue is still a big issue in the military only because it hasn't been resolved yet as you've had on your program. Uh, Mike Berry, who's a good friend of ours from first Liberty. Who's, uh, fighting for that case, with the Navy side anyway, at the seals. And now it's a class action suit, but your point is well taken. Our chaplains were part of interview process at the very beginning for every service member who had a religious ex, you know, request or a combination to just having a sit down and we're not to judge them and not to give them the Spanish inquisition of said, are you really a Lutheran? Can you say catechism? Well then I don't think you can.

You know, whether I personally only as chaplain Craig Mueller got to vaccination or not is not the issue. It's that person in front of me has the religious, uh, right. According to constitution to appeal and say, I have a deeply held conscience and faith that won't allow me to do this. And I wanna seek an exemption to that based on my individual Liberty. So it's not a judgment of whether I do agree with him or not agree with him, but it's to make sure that they have the opportunity to request that accommodation. I think that kind of got blown up proportion. I think that's where, you know, Mike Barry's case and others have a real good case is just because none are being approved, Uh, medical and administrative ones. So it's crazy.

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. And we had the administrative, the medical, and those are being approved. And the one that has first amendment protections is not being approved. And, and again, you know, too, we were, we we've had other in individuals on the, on the program too, at least their wives, because, uh, they couldn't necessarily speak to it personally, cuz they're in the middle of the, uh, of the process. But you know, I would ask, have you had COVID oh yeah. Do you have the antibodies? Yeah. So there's this capricious law that just suddenly says either you do what we tell you to do or you're out and we're sitting there going, but that doesn't make them less ready that doesn't make them. I mean, they actually have more immunity than if they got vaccinated. What's the see, that's what we were struggling with too. This just capricious. We've just decided to tell you this. Now either you do it or you are out and that's the kind of stuff that the constitution protects against.

Again, our, you know, great Lutheran theology, how helps us there with the fancy word Audi offering, you know, we would say,

You know that you gotta, wait, wait, wait, you got, before you go on, you have, this is a DC audience, man. You know, Audi offerer what are, tell him what it's

Yeah, God, God doesn't either forbid it or, uh, command it. So it's really a Christian conscience issue and that's this facts thing falls right in there. Right. You know, so as, again, as a chaplain, you know, my job is to make sure I don't bind the conscience of my young sailor service member, Marine whoever's in front of me and you know, say, Hey, you're sitting, you're gonna kill your neighbor right. Or not to bind their conscience by saying, you know, you're doing a vaccination that was used an abortion, you know, I'm not to, it's not my job. I'm there to protect their individual Liberty, you know? Right. Again, I'm not a lawyer. This is just a religious thing. I think the frustrating thing for us, I think from looking outside in now is the chaplains are in it at the ground, you know, the first interview. Right. But after that, and, and we've heard that a lot of commander is even recommended approval at the local level. Oh, it's just that when it gets up to the, uh, higher levels, you know, the, the decision's been made obviously, as we're seeing and that's, that's the lawsuits that they're not really even considering them. And I don't know, you know, what role the chaplain plays after that? You know, it's above my, as we say,

But I know at the, you know, at the tactical level, our chaplains have worked hard. If all faith groups, the ones that I know, friends and colleagues of ensuring that these young men and women have a fair hearing. And that's why they're frustrated because they really thought this person was sincere. They, they really, they're not trying to get outta work. They're not trying to pull one over the eyes. They just really believe that this is not the, the thing God wants them to do. And then they're just told, denied, you know, with the

. Well, that now that's good for me to understand too, because I was wondering, you know, at what level, so you're saying on the ground level, and that's again where you, you all are doing your, your best work. Um, what it's interesting to me, and I don't know if this is gonna affect you later. And I hope it does. And I hope some of these lawsuits clarified, I was talking to Kelly Shackleford of first Liberty and he was talking, we had him on interviewing on, on some of these school choice cases. And he said, this is the best time for religious Liberty in our country from a, a legal point of view. And I, you gotta explain that. I said, cuz that's not what I see. He goes, no, no, no. He said a lot of things that are, that are issues that are out there right now.

They're gonna be worked out because the Bladensburg case flipped this whole thing back to what it used to be, which is protecting the church from the state, the lemon law was kind of gutted. You know, that's where you had to prove as a Christian, why we should actually accommodate you in these state issues now it's they gotta prove why they need to, why this question needs to be litigated from their point of view. And he was already talking about how major scenes on public property and all that kind of stuff that used to just be completely wiped out. He said, no, you can do those things. Those are natural expressions of your community. You can do those things. So I'm hoping that if you guys can just hang in there and keep doing your work on the ground, that some of it it's kinda like VJ day, you know, the victory over Japan day was declared, but they were still battling on the islands, you know, and you guys are still battling on the islands. So I guess maybe the next question for me is how is the morale then of the chaplains on the ground with their people.

I appreciate you saying that a lot, Greg, that's important because that's one of my roles as an endorsing agent for the Missouri Senate chaplains, especially is how are they being taken care of pastorally? And I think, you know, they're all doing well. I think the frustrating thing for them is again, they, they really feel, you know, who's gonna take care once this is denied. You know, it's almost like they're getting thrown out. And, uh, almost, I don't hate to put it in the whole phrase of, uh, traumatized, but you know, here's an organization they signed up for. They gave their life to, uh, willing to die for it. And then they're kicked out because they really don't do believe their heart of hearts and conscience that this is not good for them. You know, that, that against their religious faith. And now who's gonna take care of 'em on the other end, you know, if they lose all that. And I know our chaplains do that as we started out early in our conversation saying that chaplains always care for people regardless of what they're going through. So there will be chaplains walking through them for however this

Ends like. And I think that's one of the reasons why my organization exists is to make sure that the litigation part where people can't just get steamroll by the government, yours is also the, the morale and moral part and spiritual parts so that they understand who they are outside of that battle so that they have the strength to battle back if they need to. I mean, this is important stuff for, for each one of these folks, you know what you were just saying, uh, triggered something in my mind. And that is, you know, we don't have a corporate statement on the vaccines. Like if you wanna say, what's the LCMS statement, it's kind of like an audio offerer thing. There's there, you know, you can come to the conclusion of getting one or not getting one and both be faithful in, in a, in a certain, but that's what, again, the, the foundation of the constitutional protections.

That's why they're not corporate they're individual. Um, so it doesn't matter whether the LCMS finally says we have this, so now you can fight back. It it's that you as an individual have that, that freedom. Well, in closing, you know, when you talk about chaplaincy, there may be a pastor out there, or there may be even a service member out there who, who tell 'em why it's such an, a vital thing. Now, in spite of all these challenges, in spite of some of the bad politics and all the things that are out there, why is this something that's that important to do?

Well because our young men and women who selfly serve our nation deserve the free exercise of religion. They need pastors. And of course, we as representing the Missouri Senate, our Lutheran young men and women need a pastor to receive the word in sacrament ministry. And they're gonna be deployed in us year and isolated deployed situations where they're not gonna be able to recede that if we don't have chaplains, uh, ministering to them. And I think that's, you know, the end of the day at when this whole thing is settled, I hope and pray that the reputation of the chaplain has not been, uh, ruined, you know, because every chaplain interviewed people, uh, through that us. But I think the sailor on the ground, the Marine, the airmen, the coast guardsmen soldier knows that they're chaplain across from them really does care about them. And they are helping them walk through this.

And that's the kind of thing. So I encourage any young pastor who's, uh, even thought about this, to think about being a military chaplain, because we need you, as you can tell in the world right now, right. There's wars and rumors of war, and they need their pastors with them. You know, I looked, I just was enjoying reading some of our history in world war II, how our, our church really amped it up, doing a call, you know, the uncle Sam signed and said, I want you, you know, our Cynthia, the same thing. We need you to go with our young men to, you know, world war II is Morely men then. And they said, they said, we need you to go with our boys. Yeah. They need their pastors. You know, we say the same thing. Now we need pastors to go with our men and women. They can't just get outside and, you know, find a Missouri Senate of church or even a Christian Church sometimes.

Well, you know, it was interesting that you even said that about world war too, because again, our culture is under, you know, the identity politics and all the nonsense. That's in our culture too. That's germ, those were Germans going back to fight Germans. And they wanted to take care of the American Germans who were doing that. And they wanted to be honorable faithful, and they wanted to be faithful to the scripture. And again, that's the kind of stuff for there. There's, there's things that transcend there's things that call us to do the right thing. Uh, no matter what. And I think what you're talking about is the spiritual dimension. If there's any place where it needs to be, it needs to be on the front lines of people hacking each other to death, you know, in, in one to hopefully protect the right thing from the bad guys who are trying to take the right thing to suddenly evacuate the moral dimension of that, or the spiritual dimension of that is if it doesn't matter or doesn't exist.

It, it seems to illustrate that our nation is a bit on the decline, because that was the thing that was first and foremost in, in general, Washington's mind when he thought about even revolution or not revolution, it had to do with the Providence of God and the spiritual dimension that would judge us all in the end, if we didn't fight for the right thing. And you chaplains are the ones that are actually keeping that front and center of not only our leaders, but then also front and center in the hearts and minds of our fighting folks on the ground. If they wanna get to know more about what you do, cuz I know what you do and what I do, um, can intersect. But a lot of times you're fighting the battles more directly to the military. I'm fighting, 'em more on the hill. Uh, even if they do intersect, how can they get to know more about what you're doing Craig?

Well, the best thing to do of course is you go to our website at lcms.org/armed forces, or just, uh, email us at LCMS chaps, lcms.org, pretty easy, just LCMS chaps@lcms.org. We'd be glad to engage with you. If you have a service member, who's going through a struggle and they need a chaplain. If you're listening to this program, you know, reach out to us, we can connect them to a, a chaplain or again, I am paid to be pro hill. So if you're a young pastor out there listening, we need you. So email me, call me

Well, and, and just to close this down too folks, uh, we work with a lot of, of people. So, uh, there's, there's the spiritual dimension to this. And that's something that we're on the case and chaplain Mueller's on the case with that and he can connect you, but we're also working with people like Alliance, defending freedom. We're working with politicians on the hill. That's what I do. And, uh, that's what he does as well. And, and sometimes we can point you to resource like that for you as well. So you don't feel like you're alone talking about Mike Berry and first Liberty. And, and, and I was talking about Shackleford and first Liberty, and we were with all different folks on the hill, uh, because these are battles that if you lose them, you, you lose the individual Liberty and you lose. Then the spiritual dimension that I still think makes America you need and what it is. And so if you are interested in this kind of information, all you have to do is go to chaplain Mueller's website or the SMS armed forces website, and all those resources and all those potential partnerships, uh, are, can be available to you. Right? Absolutely.

All right. Well, it's been my pleasure to have you on the program. Any last words, uh, Craig, you might wanna share with our listeners about, uh, the chaplaincy its challenges and how it actually serves the church, even at large?

No, I just really appreciate all the prayers. You know, our church has a strong and storied history of understanding the church and state and supporting the idea of a vocation of, uh, a profession of arms, you know, our men and women who the call of our nation. So we're grateful for all those young men and women who selflessly serve our nation and the pastors and congregations who continue to sacrifice to make sure they receive the gifts of God. So I I'm just grateful for our church's prayers and support. And, um, we just gotta keep going because the devil is a prowling lion.

He's a prowling lion and there's sometimes we just gotta stop him in his tracks. And that's why the state, that's why the police force as why military necessary, uh, so that the church can keep preaching the good news of God freely so that everybody can hear. Uh, so again, thanks, uh, Craig, thanks for your service and thanks for the work that you do. And if there's any way that we can be, uh, even of more service to you, please let us know and, and thank you for the, for battling religious Liberty, cuz I know you protect our churches, our schools, uh, even if you're not doing it for them, uh, battling it in the military actually is good for all of us. So God bless you.

Well, thank you, sir. Thank you for your work and your organization. Being a partner in this valid and important fight

We're in it together. Take care, man. Thanks for having. Thanks for being here today.

You bet.

Thanks for tuning in today to get to know our L C L D see work better. Check out our website@lclfreedom.org contain. There are resources to empower your public square dynamic discipleship till next time. God bless you. Always I'm Gregory. Seltz have a great week.

You've been listening to Liberty alert with Dr. Gregory Seltz executive direct the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in Washington, DC. This program has been brought to you by the Lutheran center for religious Liberty.