Liberty Alert With Rev. Dr. Gregory Seltz

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

Welcome to the Liberty alert with Gregory. Seltz sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran center for religious liberties here in Washington, DC, a program that cuts through the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to kingdoms, citizenship, old biblical principles for a robust public Christian life. And now your host, Dr. Gregory SELs,

Good day, good day, Washington DC, and friends of the Liberty alert all across the country. I'm Gregory SELs. And every week we try to cut through the noise and cut through the chaos and bring you the issues, especially the issues that concern people of faith and talk about how we can respond faithfully from God's two kingdom perspective to be a blessing in our culture, even as we share the good news of the gospel as well. And in the news, it's all about Ukraine right now. And you know, the images are horrific, obviously. Um, tyranny is on the move and people are fighting for their freedom, even, uh, giving their very lives for their freedom. And, and that's what we wanna talk about today with our special guest. Who's coming up in just a minute, but the one of the things I wanna remind you, you know, we're not talk, uh, we don't really have a foreign policy perspective. That's not the role of the Liberty alert because we stand for religious Liberty, the sanctity of life. We defend the institution of marriage and educational freedom here in the states. And so we do not have a foreign policy, but while we don't have that, I think the Ukrainian situation does help us though, because it puts on display the horrors of communism, the horrors

Of

Greg. Great to be with you. Thanks for

Inviting me. Well, listen, now, you know, we are, we're a first amendment organization in America, so generally, you know what we're about is religious Liberty sanctity of life, defending the Institute of marriage and educational freedom in our borders. But the reason I wanted to talk to you is because you, in your op ed, you were talking about their commitment to, to sovereignty their, their patriotism, if you will. And then I read an article, came out just about the same time, about a lot of Americans. If we were invaded, we, we wouldn't stay a fight. And so that I want to get to that, but let's start with the op-ed and, and talk through the context of what's going on there, cuz you saw people who yearned to be free.

Now what's interesting about this was it was a quiet sort of forest off the, off the roadway and some memorials and so forth. But I really didn't know what I was getting into when we, when we were out there and there was a, there was a solemness to it and something was, you could just tell something significant had happened here. Well, come to learn that this is a place where they estimate 200,000 people were secretly buried and these were people who were killed by Stalin in the twenties, thirties, and forties. So they were tried and arrested and shot in the back of the head and taken out and dumped here. And the Soviet union for years, literally for decades denied any involvement in this thing, of course. And then the, well, the overwhelming evidence was just too much. And the, so finally in the eighties, they acknowledged this crime, but that was sort of just a touch point just to, just to walk through then the next day I'm, I'm up in TGA, this Northern city.

All

Right?

And so they were born into the Soviet socialist Republic. They, they also would've survived. What's known as the hello DeMar, which is the, the, the manmade famine that Stalin foisted on the Ukrainians, starving millions of Ukrainians. They survived Russian invasion or German invasion. They survived the, uh, reas assertion of communist authority. They survived independence. They survived the Cher noble disaster. They survived the orange revolution incoming from the east in terms of the Don boss and crimee and next, and these two women showed up and it, as I began to think about it, it was mind blowing for me. And it was so encouraging. Why was it encouraging? I'll tell you why it's because they weren't, they weren't naive. You know what I mean? These were not, these were people who had seen things and without question there, they had suffered, but they were showing up to vote and, and it was as if they were witnesses to history and their presence in my estimation just deserved so much respect. And there was this matter of factness about them. That was just like, yep, we're here. We're gonna vote. And, and they communicated so much to me, just with their presence, Greg, they didn't have to say a

Word well, and you know, for me, that, that's what I loved about your op ed is because they knew even the basics of Liberty, what they were worth fighting for, what they were worth dragging their bodies, if you will, to vote what that was all about. And that's troubles me a little bit with, with the sense that we have over here, because you know, to me, we have incredible liberties here in America that still resound to the whole world. We have people can't wait to get here. I know people from all other parts of the world that just say, man, I can't wait to get to America. And yet I read that Americans, if we were in VA, wouldn't not only wouldn't we vote. If we got ticked off maybe from a microaggression or something, but we, if we were invaded, we we'd leave. And I'm like, how, what's the disconnect? Because I'm hearing now a lot of support, Ukraine support, Ukraine, support Ukraine. But these are some from some of the people who actually think that our liberties here are not to be cherished. It doesn't that kind of blow back on us a little bit and, and show us that maybe we've gotta get our house in order.

Yeah, it sure does. And you know, maybe what can come out of this is an object lesson for Americans, the type of Americans that you're describing and they're seeing, you know, what, what the Ukrainians are doing and how tenacious they are and how they're fighting. Right. And they're there hopefully will be an awakening. I take your point in terms of the inconsistency. And I think part of the challenge, right, is that there's so many Americans that think that the natural, or that they think that the Liberty that you described a minute ago, they think that's normal, Right? It's not normal. It's not, it's a normal, complete aberration of history,

Correct.

History is filled with miserable tyranny and difficulty and, and oppression. And yet you and I find ourselves in this country, that is a complete outlier historically. And,

And let me just one more point before I get to your second op-ed, which is how do we then look forward, uh, you know, you, the, the windshield versus the rear view mirror. Cause that was another great way to, to, to kind of move this discussion forward. But it also troubles me, like you just described about Stalin, you described about the killing fields. And I didn't really know that history until I read you had written. And, and yet again, like I said, so many of our young people today, they're, they're talking about this philosophy called socialism or, or communism and how beautiful it is. Well, it killed a hundred million people last century. And so when you talk about this thing, uh, where do they get this notion that it's gonna be kinder and gentler than this Ukrainians are demonstrating to us? What it's like to fight that thing back into, you know, into its box.

Yeah, that's right. And it it's so insidious and it's so, uh, pervasive and pernicious. I had a discussion one time with Larry, a, the president of Hillsdale college. And I, I asked him, what book should I be reading? And he turned me onto a book that I'm gonna commend to you. It's called darkness at noon. It's a famous novel written, um, about the Stalin show trials. And it, it, it answers this question. Why would anybody, um, surrender their life for something that they knew was a lie, even though, um, and it wasn't to sacrifice for somebody else. It's, it's a really interesting question about the dark heartedness and the dark nature of communism and, and where it ends. It's called darkness at noon.

Okay. Okay. Well,

But it answers that question because it purports, you know, communism purports to be some sunshine and roses and goodness and so forth. But behind it is a steel fist of oppression that will put you in a Gulag so fast, it'll make your head

Spin. Yeah. I, I remember reading about, I think it was mu and the STAI, uh, and how they had like this beautiful place to live. It was like this place everyone wanted to get into so they could live like the, the elites, you know, except once you got inside, it was terror beyond imagination because if you were suddenly found out to be not in line, the Stasi would come up through the dumb waiters and suddenly your apartment was vacant, you know? So, uh, people have no clue what it's like to get past the facade. All right. So you, you know, that's right. You talked about a way forward and in your second op-ed you were talking about windshield versus rear view. Break that down a little bit for our listeners.

Yeah. So I had an experience. It was a couple years after I was an election observer. I was invited to a conference, a quiet, small, very low key meeting for a weekend outside of Berlin. And there were members of the Russian Duma and Federation council and some members of the German Boes dog, their legislature, and some other members of Congress. And the idea was to have an, a discussion. You can picture this, you mean to have a discussion about foreign policy issues that are significant, right? And, um, during the course of, of the weekend, there was a, there was a, a, a dinner and I was walking across the property and I saw one of the Russian leaders. And I thought, this is my chance. I want to go talk to this guy. And I, and I'm out of earshot. So I can actually have a straight conversation with him and nobody else is listening.

And so I, I come up to him and I said, look, um, talking about Ukraine. I said, Americans care a lot about Ukraine. We, we, we got a, a million Americans who, who trace their heritage. There, we, we cared deeply, were really upset about what happened in Crimea and what happened in the Donvan region. And, um, I stipulate that Russians care about what goes on in Ukraine too, because they're right next door to you. But I said, let me ask you this. What happens if you completely dominate Ukraine? What happens if you go in and you completely run them over, I said, what do you win? They're gonna hate your guts forever. They're gonna fight you forever. The world's gonna hate you. It's gonna cost you a fortune. It's gonna be miserable in terms of treasure and lives. And it'll be a disaster. And, and it will be very, very expensive for you.

What do you win? And great. He turned to me and he said, Congressman, we will have the satisfaction of knowing that the Ukrainians are not more us than we are. And I thought to myself, what, I, I didn't have a category for that. I, who talks like that, who thinks like that? Who admits that? And he wasn't being ironic. This was not a joke. This was not like some clever, oh, I'm gonna like this. Guy's like this guy's candle. He was like, he was not. And what it disclosed to me was a worldview. And upon reflection, I've realized that it was just looming malevolence. It was a foreshadowing of what was to come. Yeah. And, you know, the, the, the Russians that I was interacting with Greg were always looking through the rear, the, the rear view mirror. Right. You know what I mean? It was always litigating sort of past grievances and, and what some deputy undersecretary stated said to them 20 years ago, you know what I mean?

And the Western attitude, we don't think this way, we look through the windshield of life. We're looking down the highway and we're trying to figure out, okay, we got a problem. Let's negotiate. How can we come up with a solution here? And it was just, it was just breathtaking. And that's what Ukraine is dealing dealing with right now, because yeah. Is it a perfect democracy? Of course not. Right. Is it a democracy? Is it a group of people that wants to affiliate with the west? Clearly they wanna be Western affiliated and they don't wanna get sucked into this larger sort of vortex of all this Russian, but it was, it was a, a conversation I will never forget

With. Well, and I, as I read that, and I, I was thinking, um, it was almost like he's my little, and I'm not letting him be bigger than me. And then I thought, wow, you would destroy, you know, bring the world to world war II for that. But maybe the bigger

Fight practically.

Yeah. Well maybe the bigger perspective though, and I think this is something we need to learn from here in America too, is it also shows you the power of that ideology. So when that doesn't work, when it destroys everything in its path, instead of admitting, it's not the, these fundamentals, aren't the secular state cannot replace the church. The secular state cannot be the solution for all the problems of life. That was the USSR. That's what they were supposed to be. That was east Berlin. That was all that stuff. Well, it all always comes to decay when I was in, uh, Lynn, you know, and I was, uh, actually where Luther grew and I saw the east German side of things and how Dr. How still drab it was and, and how depressing it was and how it was radically different by that line of demarcation from west Berlin and from west Germany. But there's comes a point where they're gonna hold on to that ideology until they burn everything down. Maybe that's kind of what's going on here.

Right. I know exactly what you're describing when we were, when I was a little kid, we went, uh, as a family and we went over into east Berlin for a day. And, um, it was like walking from a color movie into a black and white movie. And I was picking that up. I'm eight years old and I'm picking that up. Right. And, and just the, the, the destructive nature of it over time and, and just the heartache of it. And now it, it becomes, um, it changes, it, it morphs, it shifts, but it's the same. It it's the same. It it's power, it's sin. It is aggression and it is oppression. Yeah.

Flowers meant

To, it's meant to put people down. Um, you know, whereas what, what you're talking about about every day is it's the gospel, it's the gift. It's, it's, it's supernatural. It is life giving and there's buoyancy, and it is an invitation. And this by contrast is so dark

Well, and it's Liberty, you know, so, you know, we always talk about their two aspects to Liberty. There's the temporal liberties that even sinners have in this world that God's still gives us. And, and unfortunately that's the Liberty to even destroy ourselves in a lot of ways. And then there's the Liberty that comes because of what he has done for us in Christ. Absolutely. And they're both so vital and America actually understands the tension between those liberties, but it also understands its preciousness. The thing I wanna talk about learning now is now how do we learn from Ukrainians willingness to stand up to this? And whether we support that or whether we jump in and all that that's foreign policy stuff that may be beyond my ability to work through that with you today. But I do think we need to learn from them as we support them. And that is they understand what they're fighting for. Why are our kids so enamored with socialism, communism and all these things. If we're now looking at Putin and, and, and seeing all the things at Putin and Stalin and mu Salini and Mao all brought to the world, why are we saying, and that's something we need to bring here. I guess that's my, that's my first thing. And then I wanna know what can we learn from their Patriot to, and then how can we help?

There's a little bit of shiny object is here. In other words, there's a things that are described as a bumper sticker, equality, fairness, and so forth. Those are all nice on the surface, but then to go deep and understand and under what those concepts mean, they've gotta, we've gotta make sure that they're well offended and, and that the, the, the left doesn't steal that language basically. Okay. And so I think that there's, um, you know, it it's incumbent upon one generation to teach the next, remember Ronald Reagan said it, freedom is only a generation away from, from being lost. That this is a teaching moment. This is a moment where there is bold faced aggression that is filled with lies and nonsense. And that is what put is doing. And you've got a group of people that we it's easy to relate to the Ukrainians. You look at their cities before the war.

And it's like, I don't know, Hey, that, that that's a place I could be walking around and, and people can relate to that. And right. And I think that what we, what we do and what we see is people that are saying, no, you know, when, when lair Linsky, the president of Ukraine was asked by the state department, if he wanted to get out of town, he said, I need ammunition. I don't need a ride. You know what I mean? It's like, what, what are you talking about? I'm, we're staying here. Um, I, I, I was able to meet the, the mayor of Kiev. Um,

Let's

Go big boxer, you know?

Yeah, man. I love those guys

Yeah. Aspirational. I mean, I, I think not only these guys were the best boxers in the world, they're some of the brightest human beings in the world. And then they were willing to go back to their neighborhood and defend the freedoms of all people. That's pretty impressive stuff. And that's stuff to learn from hear back in, in, in America that not, like you said, not only are these freedoms to be cherished, but you've got to actually defend these things. Cuz I, let me just see if, see, if I can put it this way. We talk about equality of access here and then freedom to live, uh, uh, you know, virtuous lives obviously, but no guarantee of the outcome. That's what Liberty is Liberty and are always in inverse relationships. That's America, that's Ukraine versus equity, which is Russia, which is equality of outcomes. But then the state determines everything and takes all your freedoms and your choices and all those things away and says, this is what you will do. And this is what you will do. That's what's display here. But sometimes the philosophically I say to people, but your philosophy kind of aligns with Russia and, and maybe you ought to step back from that and see what you're really thinking. Uh, is that something you can learn?

I, I hear you a lot. I, listen, I understand the part of this. That's making you crazy and the inconsistency and you, you know, you look at, you look at Joe Biden who did a terrible job in Afghanistan, and that was basically an invitation for Putin to, to move and to be aggressive and, and all of those things. So you just gotta stipulate that that happened. All right. Now that happened. Now, if we're able, not withstanding that to say, we know who the good guys are, and we know who the, the bad guy and let's, let's all side with the good guys and let's make sure that they're well equipped and, and supported in, in every conceivable way. There's an urgency to this. That's just breathtaking as

Yeah. And I, and I think, I think you're right, that that's why the American people are, are standing up for Ukraine. That's why, why I wanna support crane. That's what want we wanna defend Liberty, especially because they want to defend it. They wanna defend their own Liberty. And they're just asking for our help and to that we all can rise up. And I think that's, what's exciting. And, and I think, like I said, like you were just talking about with Cleco and those guys we can learn from this, you know, even back home, we need to, we need to astute. We need to jettison equity stuff because this, the other side of that is that's the Putin stuff. You know, that's the stuff we are now all seeing on display as the thing we should think is wrong and destructive and malevolent, it's hiding behind flowery language. It's hiding behind flowery concepts, but it's tyrannical in, in practice. And it's proven that for the last, at least a hundred years. Okay. Yeah.

And I think that's right. And

Go

Ahead. It's interesting because something that you said just prompted a thought, and that was when, when you offer to help someone in your own life and they're kinda like, so, so on your help or they're not taking your advice or whatever, then you're like, Hey, you know what, I, I can't want something more than you want it. Right. But if somebody says, oh, thank you for your help, I'm gonna do exactly what, what you've suggested and they're striving and they're working for it. Then what a joy to help them. You know what I mean? Exactly. It's like what an honor to help them. Right. And so that's how I think that's what I think is part of what's resonating with a lot of people in the west with what they see happening in Ukraine

Till next time. God bless you. Always I'm Gregory. Seltz have a great week.

You've been listening to Liberty alert with Dr. Gregory Seltz executive director of the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in Washington, DC. This program has been brought to you by the Lutheran center for religious Liberty.