Liberty Alert With Rev. Dr. Gregory Seltz

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

Welcome to the Liberty alert with Gregory. Seltz sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran center for religious Liberty here in Washington, DC, a program that cuts to the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to kingdom citizens, you old biblical principles for robust public Christian life. And now your host is Dr. Gregory. Ultz

Good day, good day, Washington DC, and friends of the program all around the country. I'm Gregory. Ultz welcome to the Liberty alert where every week we, we try to cut through the noise and take on the issues, especially the public issues that matter to people of faith. Today we are privileged to have on our program, uh, Dr. Johanna PO Bishop of the evangelical Lutheran mission diocese of Finland Elm D F. Welcome, uh, Bishop PO

Thank you, Craig, to be with you.

Well, I, I have to our listeners, I have the unhappy news of reporting that both he and the finish, uh, member of parliament, Dr. PVI Rossen, and are being charged by Finland's prosecutor general for the crime, uh, against the ethnic agitation law, merely for teaching biblical, the biblical view of marriage and the biblical view of sex and sexual practice. It seems like it has gone that far. What's going on in Finland, Bishop BOLO.

Well, we have been summoned to court, the housing district court, January 24th to face charges, uh, guess, and the document is for hatred against a group.

Okay.

And, and the maximum penalty, uh, is there for two years jail, but in our case, most probably we are talking about fines. So first time Finland Lutheran, pastor of Bishop is, is charged with hate crimes. And so this is very exceptional case. Many commentators have, uh, pointed out that this is not only a national issue, but this is also European union issue, uh, because there is more, more pressure coming, uh, restricting the freedom of speech and religion and this case, whatever the outcome is, could be a president case for the future future cases.

Yeah. And you know, when, again, when I first heard of this, uh, many, many, many months ago, even year ago, when I heard about this, people don't seem to understand in that this is the silencing of the church. Uh, obviously persecution will come, but it's also the silencing where people won't be able to hear your message, because there's gonna be so much pressure, uh, whether you go to jail or not, uh, which is scary in and of itself, the, the, the pressure that the government can put on you so that you can't speak, or you can't be heard, maybe that's the better, uh, way to say it that should, that should trouble, uh, free people everywhere. Don't you think?

Well, and you said it, I think in another venue, especially when you were here in Washington, DC, um, and it was a joy to have met you. I really enjoyed that a lot. I hope we can play tennis sometime in better times.

I look forward

And, and you would be kind to me on the court please. But, um, you know, you also say, it's not just about the, the teachings of, of marriage and sex and sex practice. It's also, it goes to the heart of the gospel because God says no, and God says yes, on God's terms. And that's really the message of the scripture. So this, this goes right to the heart of the gospel itself too, doesn't it?

Yes, you're completely right there. So the gospel is at stake here because when we teach about the natural law, and of course, when we bring up that, when we teach the sixth common, it's not about homosexual issues. It's, it's, it covers all, all human aspects of human sexuality. And we, we all fall short there. So what, what, what we really need is that to preach the Christ crucified, who is, uh, was forgiven our sin and the freedom of the gospel must prevail in the church and the law, which accuses us and, and shows that, that we are sins. And we fall short. We need to, we need to be clear with the law in order to bring the gospel, right. So if we cannot teach publicly that it's a sin, it's against a natural order to live in a homosexual of relationships, uh, how can we share the gospel with them,

Right. And, you know, people don't, people need to understand, again, the Luther in teaching is that we are a hundred percent sinners and a hundred percent saints. And to be a Saint is really a gift because it's, Christ's righteousness that covers you, not your own righteousness before God. So that a hundred percent means we, this, the law hits us right. Between the eyes too. And all we're asking is the ability to preach the whole council of God on God's terms for all of us. And that's just something we can't give that, but we can't give that up no matter what the pressure

That's true.

Yeah. You said something also, uh, in, in our time together, you said that, uh, Dr. Rosson and was really the one who was also in the crosshairs in ways that even so, even more than you, which I, I found amazing, but, and how much courage she had. And I think Christians need to understand that this is not just something pastors need to be prepared for. This is something that all Christians need to be prepared for. Tell me some of the things that are happening with her as well.

Well, yes. So she's a medical doctor, this a Lutheran lady, and also former interior interior minister. So home office and, and longstanding member of parliament, and really, uh, actually she has been charged with two other cases, uh, in my case, I'm responsible for, for, as a chief editor of chief, this publication for distributing this, but then, uh, she has been also prosecuted for a tweet and, and, and then also TV show where she, she said that, uh, similar issues, right? The, the, the, but the tweet is in, in that sense, very interesting is that it was during, in the pride, in, in Helsinki and, and the evangelical Lutheran church, the official established us took part of that as a sponsor. And then Mrs. Rasin asked in that tweet, how, how can you be proudful of that? What the word of God says it's seen and shame.

And then she took a photograph of Romans one, which clearly states these issues and, and put it there. And now she's accused for, for sharing this tweet. And so it's quite serious that you, you took a picture from the Bible and you just say what it, what it says. And then, then you face charges. I mean, that's, that's unseen. And you have to remember that the Finland is, uh, still a few decades ago, over 90% of were nominally, at least Lutheran. And we have, we are a Christian country. We have been. So, so this is unseen in, in our setting.

Well, and you know, we talked about this when you were here too, that, you know, my grandparents, uh, were strong believers here in America, their finish Rudy and Elizabeth Keinan. And, you know, I, again, for them, I I'm, in some sense, glad that they're no longer here with us, because this would just by O their minds that their country, it, it sees the Bible this way. In fact, you were, I think I read this, um, where, uh, Dr. Rossin was speaking about something. And I think she kind of turned the question back on her accusers and said, well, shall we then take all the Bibles out of the libraries, because there's now hate speech. And if, if I'm correct me, if I'm wrong on this, but they said something like, no, you know, you, you will leave them in. You can read, read it, but you just can't believe it. Was it something along those lines?

Yes. The idea is of course that the prosecutor journal in the public interview said that, of course you can have of around or mind come and Bible. And, and of course you can read them, uh, uh, but you cannot share those convictions and, and publicly teach them if they go against kind of the common narrative, what is going on in the society, you know, and of course that's outrageous that you, you know, compare mind, come and Bible, right. Uh, of course the problem is that, that we have a, we have this very strong, uh, constitution in Finland, you know, freedom of speech, freedom, Wisconsin, and freedom of religion. And of course they are still there very clearly, right. But, but they are interpret in the light of, of these equality acts and discrimination acts. So the tendency in the Europe is more and more that because there are, you know, safe spaces and you have to protect fragile people and minorities and, and, and so more and more these emphasis is put on. And at the same time, the freedom of religion and speech is lost. So, so that, that's kind of the basic tendency of what's what's going on here.

Yeah. But, you know, it's always amazing to me. Um, because I, I, I think in Finland, the Bible is like an official book of the state too. I mean, you guys honor the Bible in a lot of your foundational documents, or at least in your public documents up at least up till this time. And it's always amazed me because the west, the kind of tolerance that exists in the west has a lot to do with the Bible's framing of these kinds of questions. So if you suddenly make the Bible hate speech, I don't see how tolerance is sues. I see how intolerance ensues.

Yes. And, and it's, it's, it's funny because it's, it's very serious that the pamphlet that we, we published, it says the male and female, he created them. So there is the kind of the equality confession, right. That the equality and the, the dignity and the human rights in that sense, you know, it doesn't come from United nations. So it doesn't even come from the right of bills from the, you know, from your constitution. But it's, it's, it comes from, from, from, from God, is given to all of us. And, and, and if, if we cut the, you know, the roots to the, this Christian tradition of biblical narrative, you know, we end, we, we end up in, in, in very miserable situation in society in general.

Well, and again, for, for those who are listening, um, obviously this is a religious Liberty issue that we're talking about, but for we who are Christian, it's not just about the freedom to practice our religion, because actually Christianity's not really a religion. It's a proclamation of freedom that comes from what God does for all people. So, uh, to us, uh, it, it's more than just give us the freedom to practice our religion. It's give us the freedom to proclaim this thing that God has done for all of us. We, uh, to tell us that we can't speak God's no, and God's yes. Means that we can't share his freedom. And that's a freedom, like you just said, the, that supersedes governmental gifts of freedom. Right.

That's true. Absolutely. Right. I mean that this isn't, this is not only a cultural issue, legal issue, it's a spiritual issue.

Right.

And, and where our, our nations and, and, and where our church bodies and, and, and going. So I, I, I approach this as, as a Lutheran pastor in a Bishop also that we have to be very clear that this is a spiritual fight as well. Not, not only a legal fight.

Yeah. And I mean, we, we talk about it a lot here in America that the sixties, it was a Liber team movement. It was a movement to just basically throw off all restraint as if we had the right to do whatever we pleased. And, and that of course is, you know, they said God was dead, so there's nothing God can do about these things or whatever. And again, that's not throwing off things and aspiring to freedom. That's actually bringing your own personal back on yourself. And Christ Christ is the liberator of all that. Christ is the one who can forgive us from all that Christ, but he calls us to account first. Um, so again, this you're right, this is a spiritual issue. And, and it's about this Libertine notion that we can do as we please, and when human beings do as they please, it's never a good thing. Well, the trials in January, so it's come to this. Right. What message do you have for believers here in America as you prepare? Uh, first of all, thank you for being here with us today. We're, we're on we're eight hours different. So I, I guess it's, it's later there for you. It's early here for me. Um,

Yeah, it's getting dark already, so,

Okay. Well, but I mean, what, what message can you have for those of us here, because I try to explain to people that the, kind of the hate speech laws, the equality act, the notion that we cannot say no on Christ terms, it's coming to America too. And, and that believers need to prepare, um, what message would you have for us?

Well, you have to be prepared for it and, and follow what what's going on in the society. And that's why I really appreciate your work. And, and that people are aware that, that those days are gone, then even know we were all Christian nations and the, the, the major narrative was a Christian narrative.

Right.

Right?

I, this is nothing that, you know, we haven't been prepared in the word of God to face those times to face trials, to face even persecution. Uh, I mean, that's normality in the life of church. And so not the, although we might feel that here and feeling like that this is something unseen, um, president, but in the life of church, this is normality, but we have all the promises of Christ with us. We, so we should not be fulfilled with fear, but fulfilled with, with joy and, and, and to be courageous in our confession, that Christ is the source of all good gifts, marriage, life, forgiveness of sins, life and salvation. Beautiful. So my, my message for you is not to be despaired, but be hopeful for thank for that, that we are considered to be worthy, to confess the name of Christ in, in public arena.

Ah, that's beautiful. And in fact, we had talked a little bit before, uh, coming on the program about the title Bishop. So many people, uh, outside of the church, think our titles are authority titles. Like he's the Bishop he's really, really, really important, but in the early church, it had more to do with you were the public, you were the public voice of the gospel for the sake of all people. And in times of persecution, they had that saying where the Bishop is, there is the church. And it meant if the bishops still out there standing publicly, in spite of all this per execution than the church is around here somewhere, right?

Yes. Yes. And I, I, I think that at least in Finland though, unfortunately bishops were many times seen as high government officials.

Oh, okay. Part

Of the elite, but in the early church, they were the, the, the, the pastors who were marched first who gave the pub public confession first. And I, I, I, I see as, as my calling also, uh, to give public the, the confession of my church of the flag and also then, you know, be prepared to pay the price, whatever it is.

Wow.

But I have been bought with the, the blood of Christ. So I have nothing to be worried

About. Well, and, and that's true. And I, so the other question that I always have that follows, this is how is your family? And, uh, how, how are they, is there, are there ways that we can be support for them? Um, cuz I know that they suffer along with you.

That's true. And of course it's not my, my family members and my, my family in the congregations, of course, it's right. You know, it's, it's, it's painful to see, uh, and, and go through. And especially if we lose, lose the case to be labeled as criminal and, and somehow, you know, hateful people. But thank you. We have received, you know, many, many encouraging emails and letters that people are praying in United States all over Europe for us. And we have really felt that, that, that my wife and my four children, they are not, you know, dis depressed or fulfilled with fear, how things going to be for that. We stand together. And I think, but we still, we are very joyful and, and celebrate Christmas with all what's going on and, and all the gifts that is included in, in, in the man. And we sing with the angels, the joy that, that Christ is born.

Wow. Well, and our, our prayers are, are with you and your family, as well as all of the people of the church. Now, one good piece of, uh, news that I had was that there are six congressmen who have sent a letter to, uh, the us commission on international religious freedom. And we're gonna follow up that letter with the other Lutheran, uh, Congressman and senators here, uh, on the hill a again, I know the solution to this, uh, is ultimately not politics. You and I both know that politics is not the solution, but I always say that the politicians are supposed to be like good referees. They're like, they'd be good linesmen in a tennis match. And then they're not supposed to play the game. They're not supposed to get, jump into the middle of the, the point, you know, so we can actually make your issues aware to them so that, so that they can say, Hey, wait, uh, this is not the way a referee should be. Uh, for those who are trying to live in freedom in Christ. But you know, you did say this, this charge says a lot about the times we're in. And I think that's something that we all need to be aware of a final thought on on the times we're in and maybe say it from the standpoint of also the opportunities that are in front of us.

Well, I prayed all the time when, when this case, you know, was brought up two years ago that, uh, the one thing is that, that in the societies, like the politicians they're calling is to fight for the rule of law in the true society. And I think that's very important when we see that, that, that all the idea, you know, big business, uh, you know, politics, you know, sports and culture in general university education system, they're all filled with the, with this cultural swift, uh, from, from, from the freedom of speech and religion towards this cancer culture and work walk thing as you very well in, in America. So the rule of the law is very important for, for keeping up the societies together. And that's why we pray for our politicians and lawmakers that, that they would make, make both in Finland and the us and everywhere else, good laws.

But from, from the point of view of, of as a British and a pastor, uh, my, my prayer has been that, that this would be opportunity to preach long gospel to the people in Finland and see that the Christian heritage have been here for hundreds and hundreds of years is, is still a living reality. And, and the word of God is a living reality, and you can build your life and future and the word of God and the promises of Christ. And if, if my, you know, humble confession in, in this trial can promote the cause of the gospel. I'm, I'm, I, I feel humble and thankful for that opportunity.

I just want you to know our commitment to you, even though, you know, this is a finish issue in the, in, in the, in your culture. And I know you're very proud of Finland, and you actually even said that you still trust that all will be done correctly

When it's all said, yes, I, I still believe in our legal system here.

Yeah. So we will, uh, believe you. And, um, but also from across the pond, as they say, um, our thoughts and prayers are with you. In fact, thank you. Our prayer is gonna be that Daniel and the lines then that the lions mouths are shut. Uh, that's our prayer. Thank you. And whether it's a Shara me shack and a Bendigo moment, our prayer is that, uh, the, the fires of the furnace don't touch you.

Thank you. I really appreci see us. And, and it's, it's great to have brothers and sisters in, in United States. We, we are very thankful for that.

Again, today, our, uh, guest has been Reverend Dr. Johanna PO he's standing again for the truth of the scripture. And like, we've been talking about many times on this program. Our calling is to speak God's truth in love, to all so that they all might listen and hear the good news of the gospel that Jesus loves them, uh, because he has lived, died and risen again for them. So to that end, we pray that you have the courage to speak the good news, but also that, uh, that your words are heard, that your words are thank

You very much. All the reasons to your ministry and work there. Thank you.

You know, before we let, uh, Bishop PO go, I actually would like to make sure that you understand that he's coming to us on our airwaves in ways that we can understand he's actually speaking his, uh, second or maybe his third language English. In fact, you, you told me, uh, that you hadn't spoken English for about a month and that you had apologized for having to kind of think and search for words while we were interviewing. I thought you, I think you did a phenomenal job. So one of the things I'd like you to do for us today is, uh, in closing, if you could, could share a blessing with us, but share it the way the fins would hear it, because, uh, we're gonna be sharing our prayers with you, but we also hope and pray someday to share the common blessings of this case resolved well as well.

God's blessings to you all.

Thanks for tuning in today to get to know our LCR L DC work better. Check out our website@lclfreedom.org till next time, God bless you. Always I'm Greg Russels have a great week.