Submission To Authorities Vs. Religious Freedom

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Action. Welcome to engaging truth. I'm your host, Matt Popovits. And with me today is Reverend Dr. Gregory Seltz. He is the executive director of the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in was in DC. Dr. Sal, thank you for being with us on engaging truth.

Yeah, man, it's great to be here with you. Thanks

Now for those who aren't familiar with the work of the Lutheran center for religious Liberty, uh, give, give our listeners an overview of, of what this organization does and what your role is.

Well, we're actually in DC for the sake of the Luther church, Missouri Senate, we're a first amendment and all our job is, is again, to, to protect the church's public voice, uh, for the sake of the culture and the church. So we, we, we define what that voice is because of course the church isn't a political entity. Um, but we get involved with religious Liberty things so that we can maintain and protect our voice, uh, sanctity of life issues, because that really pertains to everybody. And then the institution of marriage and, and educational freedom. Those are religious Liberty issues to us. And so we defend those things and that's kind of what we're in. We're in DC, advocating those things, undergirding people who support those things. And then we're out in the church training people, how to be two kingdom citizens for the sake of the culture and the mission of the church.

Now, when you say two kingdoms citizens, uh, yeah. What does that, what does that

Mean? Yeah. And that's, that's really the, it defines us uniquely in, in DC. I, I try to keep it as simple as I can. It's just that God is at work in the world, but he's at work two different ways. Uh, so, you know, you can talk about the kingdoms and the spirit of his influence and that kind of thing, but I keep it simple. God is at work to deserve the world. That's his pin ultimate work. And he does that through the vocations of people, Christian and non, uh, but that's his penultimate work. That's his secondary work. It's always in service to his ultimate work of saving the world by grace and faith and the person in work of Jesus. But those a radically different works. Uh, we have a mom and pop paper kind of that helps us define, we say, you know, the evangelical tend to say, what would Jesus do? Well, that's not a public policy question. That is a, what should I do to serve people? So they know the gospel question. It's more of a, what would the father have us do? Because the father's the one who preserves the world and Jesus honors the father's work even as he saves the world through the cross. So we have those two mom and pop papers. What question is, this is a WWFD question or a WWJD question. And, and that uniqueness of dividing those questions is what a two kingdom citizen is all about.

So, so really you would say that God is at work in the church, both sharing the gospel and advancing his, his heavenly kingdom, but he's also at work through the church in, in, in the, in the public square, in the public sphere. Um, right. But, but we are often told as citizens and we get the census citizens that, that faith is a, is a, is a private thing, a personal thing, a behind closed doors thing. And that our, our shouldn't shouldn't influence what happens out in the wider world and affecting other people, uh, is that message that we're getting, is that, is that not right? Is that well?

Yeah. And that's kind of how it's caricatured. My point is no, there's a moral dimension to our, our faith and that moral dimension is not just shared by Christians. I mean, the Bible talks about that moral dimension being written on your heart. It's run on everybody's heart. I can look at Confucius as five relationships and see echoes of the 10 commandments. Now I'm not talking about faithful, uh, practice of them, but I'm talking about the 10 commandments saying, Hey, this is the way we should be. This is the way we shouldn't be built. Those are moral perspectives. That's not our faith. We don't legislate our faith. We don't legislate belief in Jesus again, because we differentiate God his work in the world. Um, when Jesus has asked a task tax question of anti 22, he says, give to Caesar, what is Caesars give to God?

What is God's? But later on, he even tells pilot, the authority you have is given to you by my father. So again, we understand that. And so we ask, we try to ask the right questions in the left hand kingdom. That's, God's preserving work through, you know, the magistrates like you're talking about today, uh, the governors, the mayors, the president, um, but they have a role to play. And they're a role they're a servant role in God's economy of things. And actually the fourth commandment of honor, your father and your mother differentiates even the, the levels of authority, it's parents, and first, and then it's ma you know, and teachers and police, and maybe even federal government down the line. Uh, it's not, uh, you know, the, the parents aren't last in that, in that role. So we use that biblical wisdom then as we deal with policy questions and, and moral cultural questions.

So as we find ourselves in a really, really interesting time to say the least with the, the global pandemic that's happening with COVID 19 mm-hmm . And, um, it's an interesting time for Christians because, uh, the, the mitigation, uh, tactics that are being used to right to, uh, keep this virus from, from spreading, like crazy, uh, affects the church and its ability to gather, and, and churches are being instructed by their leaders, uh, to do worship services in a particular way. Um, correct. Right now it looks like online and not gathering in person. And there are some who worry that that is, uh, an overstepping of, uh, the bounds of government encroaching upon, uh, churches, first amendment, right. To worship freely, um, and to freely exercise their faith. Well,

Actually, you know, only again, uh, a two kingdom understanding can really deal with this because I think what you just defined is the lesser of two evils question. Um, in, in this debate, as we engage this debate, we're gonna find out in, in God's preserving work, he's preserving a sinful world so that they can hear the, of his salvation, but he's not saving the sinful world. The simple world's still sinful and broken. And, and so in that world, you can have two wrongs. So you can have a situation where if I don't lock everybody down, some people are gonna die, but if I lock everybody down and then, and the whole culture, uh, implodes, then people are gonna die another way. Well, which one should I do? Um, but again, I wanna get back to something deeper. Uh, we, by the way, we have a mom and pop paper on this one called reformation restraint, uh, seeking, uh, justice.

And what we say is when we jump into a, a political or a cultural issue, we have a restraint mindset. God could be doing some good things, even through people we disagree. So we get involved in that, knowing it's not his saving work, it's just keep all hell from breaking loose in this world. Um, and so we, we approach it that way. But as we see things, when people start shutting down our fundamental rights, our fundamental freedoms, and we think freedom is the better way to actually serve neighbor. We start to ask, wait a minute, do they have the right to do that? My bigger concern is not my bigger concern is there's this notion that science and government can solve the big questions of life. That's the real issue right now. It's not even religious Liberty, religious Liberty just protects our voice. We still have to define our voice.

Um, we actually also have to implement our voice. We're called to do that. And our constitutional freedoms actually demand that of us. Okay. But if they, if they protect our voice, that doesn't mean we're not gonna run into voices. That can't stand who we are, you know, and there's a sense where we have to be willing to be God's people, even for the sake of the neighborhood, disagrees with us. But right now there's this notion. And, and it's clear, uh, that, that there are people who think science and religion. I mean, science and, and government solve the big issues of a life. And we're saying no. And I do believe our founding fathers would disagree with that too, because their point was buying the government and set the religious, uh, fr religiously liberated exercising, disciplined, free citizen, set them free, and they'll solve the bigger questions of life.

And that's how they constitutionally set things up. So again, as we debate this, I'm saying, even as I get out there, I say our religious view actually protects the freedoms of people we disagree with too. Mm-hmm so, and it also starts to ask the question, wait a minute, what can science actually tell us? I don't know if you saw discussion about whether we should, uh, hold, uh, shake hands going forward, or whether, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And he actually said probably should never shake hands again. If you knew what he knew, he knows you should never shake hands again. But then he gave this counsel to this other guy who said, I wanna have a hookup with a person, you know, in one of these Tinder things where I don't even know who they are. And his answer was well, if you decide to take that risk, you go right ahead.

Well, see, that's my point. Science can't define what I should do morally. It can only tell me that something happens or that it doesn't happen. So I try to tell people, uh, like if you're driving a car and you're going 25 miles an hour, my question is, is that the right mile? Is that the right, uh, miles per hour? And the answer is, I don't know, uh, if, if it's in a neighborhood, yes. If it's on the freeway, no. So there's a moral dimension to science. There's a moral dimension to what should we, how should government interact with us and all that stuff. And that is something that's super government, it's bigger than science. And that's where the church has to have a role in these and these debates going forward. That's the big issue to me and religious. Liberty's protecting that as an essential voice. And there are people today, you know, it, you hear it. They think religious Liberty in the church is a non-essential voice, uh, in the culture.

And yet if the church doesn't exercise these, these rights that are enshrining the constitution, uh, the, the, the country loses its moral voice, that voice saying, you know, for what purpose do things exist? Um, exactly. Why, why should we do things? Yeah.

Yeah. We have to see that what I'm saying. We defend even religious Liberty for all people. And then, but then we say, but not all religious voices and moral voices are gonna be the same. And so I'll give you an example. I was in this big debate, uh, on capital on immigration and I was on the panel and, you know, a real, they got Christians all over the place on, on that debate. And so finally at the end, this one guy gets up and says, Hey, you know, how can we keep our country together? We're so fractured. And this one guy said, if we could treat each other as made in the image of God, we could actually maybe get through some of these things together. Now think about that. I asked the people, what do you think the response in the room was? Cause these were staffers and, you know, congressmen, congressmen, they got a, they got a standing ovation.

Mm, well then I raised my hand and said, wait a minute. But he can't say what he just said in any university, in any public forum, in any cl he'll get an F if he says that that's a big problem. So again, I, I think when we defend these liberties, um, when I defend the sanity of life, I'm looking at people saying your life is precious too. And the person might disagree vehemently with me. So again, you know, the, when Christians get involved in the public square, they have to be able to say, this is what God wants for all of us. The trouble is we're broken voices and we're easily caricatured as not even living up to our own proclamation that doesn't make the proclamation any less true. So it's learning how to get in there and mix it up for the sake of the culture, for the, you know, and saying, I'm not holding this view from me to protect me. I've got the freedom to share it so that you might be blessed too. And that's a, that's a tough way to go. Mm it's a hard thing to do.

So in this, in this season, in this time of, of, of COVID 19 and of, uh, sheltering in place and churches meeting online versus in person, uh, right. What in your mind does it, does it sound like, does it look like for the church to be exercising its, its moral voice in the public square in, in this particular time? What, what would you think are some of the things that the church perhaps should be saying or should be articulating in this particular moment?

Well, like I said, in our Le in our Liberty, uh, alerts that we have, um, you know, you've got, you've got a couple of, uh, uh, commandments intention. Okay. You've got the, uh, honor, your father and your mother. You've got the thal, not kill DAUs shall not take innocent life. And then you've also gotta remember this a day to keep it holy, all these things are intention right now. The only thing I'm trying to say is even if we, if we suspend our, uh, essential need to meet around God's, uh, gifts and you know, for our faith and strengthening of our faith, uh, we're doing that. We're suspending them, uh, as a, it's almost like we're gifting that to the culture because we do see a pandemic in a crisis, but that crisis can never, you know, Luther was in the middle of a plague, much worse than we're in the middle of.

And he was actually ministering to people, uh, risking his life, risking his family, risking his house. So my bigger question is when people started to say, my voice are a Christian voice is a non-essential when our following father said, no, it's the first amendment says an essential thing now. Um, why can't I as a pastor go into the room of my parishioner. If I dress up just like the nurse does and I dress up just like the doctor does. Cause the doctor's last word might be, we can't help you. I'd still got something to say to my parishioner at that moment. And if someone says you, you can't go in there. And I said, why not? They're gonna say, cuz you're not essential. And I'm gonna say, no, I am. And I'll do whatever you tell me, 14 days in a quarantine, whatever you tell me, but I gotta get in there.

Yeah. Um, you know, why do we have chaplains on the battlefield, along with medics? You know? So it's, again, there's a mindset that I don't wanna lose in this. Now whether a church opens or doesn't open, we, we tell people, fashion you or own voice and fashion your way in, in terms of how can we serve the neighborhood as well as our people. So talk to your circuit, counselors, your district presidents for people in our church, make sure that you're not just, you know, going off on a, on a, a, a wild ride because you think you're gonna be a rebel cuz we're reformation restraint people cuz we know God is at work. But at the same time, if the government starts to say, you know, you're never gonna hand that sacrament out again. You're never gonna let Jesus touch that person's life. Uh, in the flesh we have to say, I'm sorry that we, we just can't abide by that because Christ touched the lepers Christ was in the middle of the pandemics and will be that kind of people, even if it costs us our own lives too.

So, you know, working through that, there's no easy answer to that, but I always try to tell people fashion what you think your response should be and make sure that you're saying, because we want our neighbors to know that we love them. Not just that we wanna protect our voice. And if you do that, I have a feeling you'll come up with the right way to respond, um, going forward. But there are some people out there right now that'll shut you down cuz they don't think you're essential. Yeah. That I think we have to fight back.

Yeah. Because what you, what one way to think about our first amendment, right? Is that it's it, the essential nature of the church's voice is enshrined in the constitution, in that first amendment. And, and then also in other places of our founding documents that say all the rights of all human beings are endowed by a create, right? That, that, that itself shrines the essential nature of the church's voice.

There's so many places where the church has been a blessing in the middle of incredible, uh, degradation. I mean you think of things like the Geneva convention rules of, of just war engagement, where do people think that came from? It came from a moral voice, trying to struggle with the, the absurdity of war because you got sinful people conflicting with each other, but we're gonna try to keep it as humane as possible. And you know, uh, gosh, we seem to fail at that all the time, but there wouldn't even be those rules. If there wasn't a moral voice in they're saying these are still human beings that are dying, you know? And so again, you know, as we think through this, science is not gonna give you that perspective and the government sure. Isn't uh, and I don't care what, what party you're from. Um, I tend to sometimes say there's one party, that's willfully slapping some of these moral things in the face and there's the other party that won't stand up for it when the time is right. You know, you know, I'm not, I don't put my faith in the princes, but I do say if you protect our voice, we'll be that voice. And we'll try to show why that voice is really important for everyone. Not just for us.

Yeah. You know, uh, what comes to mind for me is, you know, even the, the famous atheist philosopher NCHE says that, oh yeah. Says that if you, if you are an ardent, you know, secularist or material materialist or atheist, and yet you, you believe in things like the inherent value of all human beings or, or social justice, you are still in his mind a religious person because these ideas have what he called a religious origin or theological origin, meaning they, they come to us from these faith traditions because you certainly don't get them. And just a cold reading of, uh, of the, of the sciences. Um, you, you don't get them in, in the, uh, uh, in the, in the natural human heart, these things, these things come to us, they're revealed to us, uh, through, through spirituality.

And I would even go one further and say, well, you know, and I, I like where you're going with that because you know exactly when you started to say, where does this notion of your you as an individual matter? Well, where did that come from? Well, it came from the, the two sovereigns, the hope in the holy enrollment emperor, trying to figure out their authority over you. Uh, where did the notion of some of these things like the value of human life come from and did not come from science. And I'd love to see where the survival of the fittest people are right now. , you know, I, I don't hear anybody. I don't, I don't hear anyone leading with that on the NA on the news. And so even the concept of mercy and those kind of things, but here's another thing, even reason itself.

And rationality has a, pre-up oppositional notion that this is a rational universe. And, and that goes back to a notion that there's a God who orders things and is above all things. Um, it was interesting. Robert Reich did a thing called, uh, you know, he was talking about, uh, no higher authority. I think it was, I can't remember the name of the article, but he basically went after Christians and said modernist and pre modernists. And he calls us pre modernists. And the first thing he said was some people believe in a higher authority. We believe in the individual. And I wanted to say to him, the only reason there isn't individual is cuz people believed in a higher authority. Right. And, and, and so, yeah, so we're there debating those things for the mistake and even the folks who disagree with us, mm-hmm

, if you're just tuning in, you are listening to an engaging truth. And I am here with Reverend Dr. Gregory Seltz. He is the executive director of the Lutheran center for religious Liberty in Washington, DC. If you're enjoying today's show. And if you want to hear previous broadcast, you can add to our website E LM, houston.org. And there you can find out about how you can support this listener, supported ministry. Uh, Dr. Seltz, if people want to get more information about the work that you're doing in DC, where can they find it?

Well, I would just go to our webpage, L C R L freedom do org, and you'll see all kinds of information there. You'll also see our, our Facebook page there. And you can join in on our, our, uh, we have a Wednesday live, uh, broadcast, uh, every day at two o'clock Eastern one o'clock central on our Facebook page, all that information's there on that page. So go there and you'll see it all

Great. Not at all to, to minimize or make light of, of what's going on in, in our world right now, out with this global PA pandemic with COVID 19 and, and the tragedy, it is on multiple levels and in multiple ways for so many people, but, but often in the midst of tragedy, there is also, there is also, there is also opportunity, especially for people of faith. There, there is, there is, there is opportunity, uh, for, for the gospel and for the mission of the, um, to, to move forward in a time when, when people are just in desperate need of hope, uh, Dr. SU what would you see, uh, is the opportunity for people of faith and for the church in general, in, in this particular time?

Well, and see, and that's what tomorrow's, um, you know, Liberty lives is gonna be, we're talking about actions of faith, not fear. And so the question then is how should the church define its voice? And, and when I say its voice, I mean, its actions too. I don't just mean what we say, but how we're gonna do things. And so, yeah, that, again gets into that worshiped question, but it also gets into how do we serve our neighbor? How do we move out into the neighborhood again, in a way that honors, you know, the people's fears and, and at least takes them seriously, but at the same time says by, but we're here for you. And, and so, you know, there's, there's all kinds of churches doing evangelism kinds of things. Now that are saying, you know, the fear we know it's there and we're kind of tempered by it too, but we care about you so much that we're not gonna let that fear prevent us from being a good neighbor to you.

And then I'm not gonna define how people are doing that. There's all kinds of great examples by churches are starting to do those kinds of things. Some are actually starting to host, uh, you know, where you can get tested. They're, they're becoming testing centers and, and they're doing all kinds of things where they can be of service to the community at a time when people are looking, uh, for more than just what's the medical answer to this, they're, they're looking for things like is my life really valuable at all? And when we say, well, Jesus died on a cross for you. And, and the moral structure of the world is actually to keep all hell from breaking loose, but there's a better message in the messages of God who came into this brokenness with an ultimate message of, of, of forgiveness of life and salvation.

And there is hope for tomorrow, no matter what happens today. Well, we've got both those messages that we have to convey. So I tell people, it's your responsibility to now take this opportunity and say, well, how can we respond in the context of this issue? And, and we try to give people a two kingdom way of doing that by answering the right questions in this preserving work, but then saying, how can we move forward in this missional work? Because we're, God's people unafraid, and that's the first, that's the ultimate key. We're not afraid of this. Um, I had a person who died, you know, a month ago. Uh, that's just a, and they didn't die. COVID 19. It's one of those things where death comes to us all. And so the question is, what are we gonna do, no matter what. And, and we walk without fear and we say, there's a God who loves you nonetheless, and tomorrow is always gonna be a better day than his name.

Yeah. Yeah, because you're so right there is, there is a, a, a secular self righteousness that, that grows in times like this. Oh, absolutely. Where it's, um, where all the sudden the, the new orthodoxy is whether or not you're taking the pandemic seriously and whether not your quarantine correctly. And there's a whole lot of pressure on us to, to do this right. When I don't think anybody's doing this right. We're all figuring this out.

and that's the thing. And here you come as a person who says, well, God's got some, you know, moral markers that we have to honor, or else we're all going over the cliff, but that doesn't save us. That just keeps things from getting, you know, all break and loose. But now how can we MEE? If we, we look at each other's lives and walk alongside each other, how can we get involved in each other's lives as fellow broken people? Well, that's what I'm saying. That's the, church's two voices, cuz that's, God's two kingdom work in the world. And if you dishonor them, if you, you merge 'em into one voice, like I heard Nancy Pelosi say something about where a Matthew, 20 government, then I'm like, nah, Matthew 20 is not, has nothing to do with the government. It's about how you should love your neighbor. You know, it's it's same thing. We don't tell the policeman to turn the other cheek. We're the people that turn the other cheek, you know, the citizen, the individual free person. But when you get into all that stuff, we're not, we're not judge dividing this up, we're just differentiating it for clarity. And then we're saying, Lord, we're, we're broken sin. Like everybody else, please allow us to be your voice in service to them. And it should be people that actually you disagree with that that really draw your greatest intention.

How can we be best praying for our leaders and all the people in, in DC who are, who are, uh, charged with, with so much in terms of our, our care and, um, uh, the stewardship of this nation, what can we be praying for right now? Well,

I would say first of all, um, pray in the sense that you don't put your trust in politicians. That's my biggest problem today is that people are looking to politicians first. And I would just say, generally, politicians are the last people that get on the bus. So, you know, we ask for certain, they're like the referees in our life and we never want the referees to play the game. So pray for them to be good. Referees who honor the rules that we're all supposed to live under and, and pray for their families, pray that they have wisdom and then pray that they don't have the arrogance to get outta their lanes. Because a lot of 'em love to get outta their lanes. That's our prayer for them because we don't expect them to live our lives. We don't expect them to be our voice in the community.

That should be our voice, uh, freely done. So pray for that. And, and I, people who actually go to DC, I meet a lot of really great people who just want to be the best, uh, legislator, the best judge, uh, or even the best, uh, part of the executive branch. And as long as they're honoring their lanes, that they're in, you know, I'll support 'em and, and I wanna pray that they're, that they're doing a wonderful job there. And so again, pray that way. Um, and then just pray for our nation because our nation was founded on the notion that free people were gonna solve some of these issues better than government, better than all these other different issue. And there's a lot that people don't believe in that anymore. So there's a tension in that, that prayer, my point would be to be pray about it, but then live your life as a two human, uh, citizen. And I think your voice will actually be useful in God's hands.

Wonderful. Dr. Seltz. Thank you so much for, for joining us on engaging truth. We can't wait to, to have you back again soon.

Yeah. Pleasure. You take care

And to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for being part of the engaging truth family. And we'll see you back here this same time next week.

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