Episode 41: Greif, Loss, and Moving Forward in Faith

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Wanna welcome to the program. Clarissa mall, a Clarissa is an author, uh, a writer with Christianity today, relevant magazine, grief digest, and more. She co-hosts Christianity. Today's surprised by grief podcast, and she is here with us today to tell her story, we're gonna talk about grief and loss and walking through it with faith. Of course. Uh, thank you for being with me today.

Thanks so much for having me,

Uh, I I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Um, not only because your, your, your story is so powerful, um, it is so, uh, timely for us given what we're going through as a, as a world. Uh, the, the whole human community is experiencing a ton of loss right now. Um, mortality is, is in front of our faces, uh, at all times as we deal with the global pandemic. And so I, I just feel like there's a, there there's a real timeliness to your work, uh, on the subject of grief on the subject of loss. And I feel like there's a whole lot of people who have to be listening to this conversation ready to, to hear some words of, uh, of hope and comfort, or at the very least hearing that they're not alone in their grief and in their loss. I, so, so Clarissa, tell us a bit about the journey that you've been on when it comes to grief and loss over the last say two years.

If I may ask the, the moment when someone walks up to you and tells you that your, your husband has died, what are, what were the first thoughts that, that flooded your mind? The, the second that those words were uttered to you? Uh, what were the first things that you thought?

Well, I think, uh, if you've experienced any kind trauma, there is an extent to which it's an out of body experience. Uh, I describe those moments as, uh, me looking at my body, um, as though I were kind of watching myself on camera, uh, because none of that, I think our brains are not designed to take in the weight and the breaths and depths of all of what that means. And if come to believe that's a mercy, uh, that we can't take it all in. I think it would just absolutely crush us if we could. And so, um, from that moment of shock, there came, uh, a real fog after that. And I think if you are a grieving person, you understand that, get an amen from that, um, that that feeling of, uh, has kind of lost its significance. And maybe I don't even know where I left my keys or whether the oven is on, I I've lost track of what day it is and all of that shock and that fog that comes after trauma is a very normal and natural experience, uh, to catastrophic loss. So that's really what that experience was like from the moment that I heard the news and for really months afterwards.

So what can you tell us about Rob for, for all those listening and, and myself included who, who never knew him, never got a chance to speak to him. What are some of the things that you would love us to know about him that you loved about him, um, and that, and that maybe that you miss that, that you miss about him?

Well, you know, Matt, that is, that is just my favorite question, because you know, a lot of people don't ask a grieving person that it's kind of like, they don't wanna touch that. Maybe I don't wanna ask about him because that'll just make you sadder, it'll make it. And honestly, there's nothing that can make it harder. Uh, it brings joy to my life to be able to talk about him. Um, we met right after college, he was already graying at that point. So he was always my curly haired, silver Fox. Uh, he was a journalist and he was endlessly inquisitive. And I, I found that really attractive because I'm a naturally curious person. And, uh, he always wanted to know all of the things, uh, and I found that really appealing. And when it came to faith, um, he asked all the questions I was kind of afraid to ask. I had always felt like my doubts or my fears are not really welcome in conversations about spirituality. And he was willing to just lay it all out there. And from the very beginning, I found that appealing and I was drawn to his honesty and his curiosity just about the world around him, and certainly about, um, faith and the spiritual life.

So a a as you then found yourself thrown into this journey of grief, uh, of, of, of experiencing the loss of your husband of 17 years, um, uh, as you started to walk that road , was there anything on that road that surprised you about the process? Was there anything about grief that you just, uh, didn't expect?

Well, honestly, I didn't expect it to hurt this much. Um, Rob had been a hospice volunteer. He had worked in a funeral home. He had written a book about death and dying from his ex experience as a journalist. And so we were a death literate couple. Um, but I, I did not expect that the loss of him would cut so deep. I think when, um, when I had lost other people in my life, um, had experienced deaths of grandparents or even, uh, distant friends. It had never cut as deeply as it did when I lost my partner. And, uh, my lover, my best friend, all of that, um, is, was much harder than I ever could have imagined it to be. And there are a lot of people when you experience a loss, who will say, I can't imagine what it's like, but honestly you probably could, you know, we don't wanna think about how terrible that would be if a person that we loved was suddenly erased from our lives. Um, but that depth of grief is, is very real and persistent too.

Is there something that people can do to gonna say, I don't wanna wanna make in any way, make light of the, this, uh, this, uh, this journey you've been on by saying maybe there's a way to prepare for it. Right. Uh, but, but, but, but is there a way to prepare for the tidal wave of, of grief whenever it comes so that, you know, I don't know if it'll ever be not as surprising, but, but maybe you can say, well, I, I, I, I, I knew this was coming right. I, I don't know. Is, is there a way to get ready for it? That's healthy?

Well, I think there is, you know, we are a death averse culture. Um, we are, I've got my anti-aging serums and , you know, uh, I, um, I don't wanna think about, you know, 50 is the new 40, you know, there's no age where suddenly we can acknowledge how old we are getting. And, um, and yet death is the one thing that comes to us all. So I think reckoning with our mortality in life does it does help to lessen the burden in some ways. Um, we acknowledge they're not turning a blind eye. We're not being that ostrich with its head in the sand, so that, uh, death doesn't come to us as an absolute shock. And I'm not talking about the trauma of catastrophic losses, a shock that will always be a shock for people mm-hmm , but, um, we won't be surprised that death actually happened. Um, and I think there are things that we can do in respect to that, you know, keeping short accounts with loved ones, making sure we make amends, um, getting our life in order in terms of our finances or, um, just the simple everyday parts of our lives. Those things will actually, if we do them in advance thinking about them in advance, they will help us when the time comes to be able to have the space, to do the emotional work of grieving. That really you can't prepare for.

Tell me about that. Like, like, um, how did this experience shape or influence your, your Chris?

Well, I grew up in, um, a Christian family and, um, had trusted the claims of Christ early on. Um, so the Christian story has been a part of my story woven into my story through most of my life. Um, and yet faced with the real deaths and pain of death. I was amazed to discover how limp and how truncated my own understanding of the gospel had been. You know, if death is really at this bad, this horrific, this tragic to think that someone would come and endure this entirely of his own volition to be with me, feels like the universe's greatest compliment. Uh, I am amazed that Jesus would become human to do this horrible thing for me. Uh, and so in the depths of suffering and in the pain of loss, it certainly has given me a greater appreciation of for the cross and, uh, and not only for the cross, but for the nail scar.

Jesus, I think when I think about what grieving people need, uh, they need someone who understands so many grieving. People will say, I, I don't feel like anybody understands what my life is like now, you know, now that I've lost my person, that the isolate, the alienation, the shift of identity, and I look to the gospel story and I say, there is someone there. He stands, he's got the scars. He understands what it means to be rejected, to be wounded, to feel the isolation of loss. And, uh, and this man of sorrows chooses to walk with us. And, uh, so in that pain of loss, I have found Jesus far more present and real and more beautiful than I would've imagined.

So, so like a greater depth of, of gratitude for what he has endured for you, for us in, in, in his, in his own death. Is that

Accurate to say that certainly, and, and to understand that the fellowship of his sufferings to be present with him in suffering, uh, brings an intimacy to that relationship with God that, you know, I had prayed and read my Bible and gone to church. Uh, but the intimacy of being known by someone who knows what it feels like to hurt as much as I have, uh, that's a gift that is a gift in grief.

I, I, the, the phrase that just jumped out at me, what you said is that the like fellowship in suffering mm-hmm right. That, that, that deep connecting in something so deeply painful and, and, and difficult that we have fellowship with Christ in, in suffering. Um, yeah, that's that, that, that's beautiful. Why, why is it that you think that, that even people of faith can be so, um, so, so death averse or, or mortality more, more mortality illiterate despite our faith, having so much to say about this and being so in, in, in, in some ways, uh, focused on focused on the reality of death and freeing us from it, um, why is it that we can still kind of be that ostrich with our head and the sand about it?

Well, I, I need to be on, um, I'm still afraid of death. 100%. I, I'm not going to say that, uh, that my fears are gone. I am perhaps a naturally risk averse person. And, uh, and I wanna live to a really old age. I, I don't wanna die young. I don't wanna die, uh, horrifically. I don't wanna painfully. Uh, and so, um, I certainly don't wanna come across as someone who has this sense of being emboldened now that I've had my brush with sorrow. Um, but I think there's something about death that puts it all on the line for us, especially, you know, if we're believers and we have, um, we have claim to Christ as our own suddenly at death. This is where the rubber meets the road. This is, uh, you know, when the, when the shovel full of dirt goes over that casket in the ground, that's the moment where I have to say, do I believe you, God, mm-hmm do I believe that your promises are true, that your present with those who are broken hearted, that this was never your intention for a good world, uh, that you will come back to make things right.

That feels like a real moment of truth. And, and that's hard. That is really hard. And for some people that's kind of like a Paul on the road to Damascus experience where they, they see that moment of death and they say, yes, I buy in. Uh, but for me, it's been kind of like a, a slow ooze, maybe yeah. A slow growth over time of saying, uh, yes, I can trust Jesus. Yes. I can trust that all these things that were hidden in my heart years before can rely on these. These are the ropes that will hold me up. These are the things that are gonna keep me tethered to hope, even when it feels like everything in my world is slipping away. Yeah.

We, we, we go through our lives as people of faith celebrating, you know, Easter making a big deal out of it. Rightly so. And yet it's when, when death is something we have to deal with that we go, okay, do I really, do I really believe this? Or, or, or maybe even for the first time we understand what Easter means that even this thing that we're staring at right now, the death of a spouse, the death of a child, or even our own mortality, our own passing is, has been, and is being, and will be undone by Jesus.

And I, I think those are great questions to ask. I mean, I think if there's anyone listening who feels like maybe that's not okay for a person of faith to ask those questions, um, that, that is certainly okay. Uh, and, and not only, okay, God invites us to bring all of those questions. Uh, he's ready to prove himself true to us. And so none of those questions need to be seen as a, a lack of faith or, um, kind of a, a weakness or a sense of doubt. Think they're just part of being human.

So would, would you say it's okay then in, in, in your grief to throw questions, doubts, frustrations, anger at God, is that still being

Faithful? 100%, I say, do it, you know, job, uh, job asks his questions of God and, and God speaks back. You know, Hannah asks her questions of God and her infertility, and she weights with patients, uh, Naomi in the book of Ruth, uh, she's a real Debbie downer and she, uh, she has no problem telling anybody who will listen, how she feels like God has abandoned her in her suffering. So, um, and I look at those people and I think, wow, they're they're are characters in the narrative of redemption. You know, Naomi was the great, great grandmother of king David. Um, all of these characters in the Bible, they are willing to say what they need to say to God. And whether you use Psalms of lament, which are particularly helpful in getting those words out, however nasty they need to be, or if you make up your own, I think God is big enough and good enough to receive those and, and hear what's behind the words, because behind our anger, behind our frustration behind our fear is just a longing to be loved and known by God. And so I think like any good parent, you, when our, your child has a tantrum, you're able to say, ah, you know, he didn't eat or it's time for him to go to bed. You know, you can read behind those words. I think God has that same capacity too. Probably significantly better than our own as parents. And he can hear what's behind our words. He hears that we long to be known by him, loved him, assured of his presence when things are hard.

So many people are, are scared of the grief of other people. Um, that's been my experience as a, as a, as a, as a pastor, you know, as I've, I've, I've walked alongside of folks who've who experienced tremendous loss that, that as people then gather around them, I, I can sense of fear or really just not knowing what to do with somebody else's grief. Right. Um, and so that's where kind of like some of the unhelpful things that get said, kind of get thrown into the mix, but you, you give us a, a wonderful reminder of like, God is not counted among those people who are intimidated by your grief or, or bothered by it, or who would try to try to fix it. He, he, he, he can sit with your grief, unintimidated unbothered and just receive it from you. And that doesn't make you a bad person, if you wanna throw all of that at him. Right.

Yeah. In fact, it's the perfect person it's for, you know, your friends may not be able to handle that for very long, but, but God has unending patience and, uh, fortitude, perseverance, and love to, to take in all of what we need to say to him. So,

So that, that brings me to a question that, that I have for you that that's, it's a question that's been thrown at me as a, as a to pastor is, and a question that really boils down to this is, is there space within faith for grief? And, and I know the answer is, is yes, but the reason people ask that question to me, I think is because they, they feel like sadness over something that God has allowed to happen, ultimately, right. Um, or sadness over death in the face of believing that there's life after death, right? Is that, that these two things are somehow disconnected. Like I don't have enough faith, if I'm really sad about what happened. Like if I really believed in the resurrection of all flesh and the return of Christ, if I really believed that this person I lost is now at rest in the presence of Jesus, then I probably wouldn't be as sad as I am, or maybe they wouldn't be as sad as they are. And there's this disconnect between faith and, and grief. Talk a little bit a, a about that misconception.

Well, I think there are five words that have really helped me, and yet they're founded first Corinthians, then it will be said's. So Christians will often hear that, um, uh, that verse said, oh, death, where is I sting, you know, grade where is SI victory. But if you read those verses in first Corinthians, you discover pretty quickly that there's those five little words that are right before those proclamations, then it will be said, and we know that death is a reality. And the grave is a reality and death stings. And we don't feel the victory of the grave right now, because then it will be said, the completion, the culmination of all things is yet to come. And so we live in this season of waiting and in the season of, we have that strange mixture of emotions, of faith and doubt of hopefulness and despair in the face of grief.

And as a grieving person, you learn to hold those things in the same hand, you learn to, uh, laugh and yet still cry. When you think of your loved one, you learn to, um, point your feet toward hope and try new things, rebuild your life. Even as you carry the sorrow with you into the new life that you build without your person. And I think that's where grieving people have such a gift to give the world. Uh, we understand the nuance there. We understand that it's not cut and dry. It's not black and white. There's not faithfulness and or sorrow, um, that both of those things live together until that day, when it will be said death, whereas by victory grave, where is by stink.

And I imagine you found something similar to be true in your own journey of like, yes, I believe this. And I'm also holding onto this pain and this sorrow and this anger and a whole bunch of stuff I can't at times from even make sense of.

Right? Yep. Well, and because grief, isn't linear, uh, whether you have a chronic illness or you are grieving a loss of a marriage or a relationship, you know, that there's a sense in which that pain will follow you for many years to come. And, um, and that very real understanding of what it means to be human and lose something or someone you love. Um, we don't become super human when we decide to follow Jesus, we stay just as we are. And he redeems us in every way.

Let, let's talk for a minute about how we can best love the people around us that have gone through a loss who are grieving. Um, what are some of the things that are most helpful to say or do for someone or to someone who experiencing a loss?

Well, I think when people, uh, lose a loved one, oftentimes, uh, folks who are well-meaning come up and say, let me know how I can help, but really for most grieving people, that's a big ask. Uh, they're not even sure necessarily how you can help. So I have trained my own kids, uh, when they walk into a classroom at school to say, walk up to the teacher and say, how can I be a helper and just start looking for a job to do? Um, maybe they notice that trash can needs to be emptied or that the board needs to be erased. You can ask, but then set right to work. And for people who are grieving, it's really helpful. If you can come up with something to do on your own. Hey, you know, I noticed that you haven't gone grocery shopping lately. Would you mind if I dropped over groceries after work today, or, uh, I know that cleaning my bathrooms is super hard on a weekly basis, and I'm sure you do not have the brain space for cleaning your bathroom.

Would it be okay if I came over on Saturday morning to clean your bathroom? Um, those, I suggest those two things because they're infinitely less glamorous than serving up a lovely plated dinner or a casserole with flour, you know, um, but they are just as important for a grieving person to receive. So, uh, looking for things you can do, finding the unglamorous work and volunteering for that. And then I think also making sure that people know that you're present for them for the long haul. A lot of grieving people experience supports for the first year, and then notice it sort of tapers off after that. But a friend who's willing to stay committed for the long haul is an incredible gift to someone who's trying to rebuild their life.

Krissa thanks so much for sharing your story, your journey, your insights. Uh, we really appreciate the time that you've shared with us today.

Thanks so much.

I hope that we can chat with you, uh, again, sometime in the future. And thank you for listening to those of you who are listening to the program. Thanks for tuning in, uh, we hope that you'll be with us next time as well.

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