Join Host Pastor David Schultz as he welcomes pastor and author Tim Carter, whose faith walk led him from a career as a death row prison guard to his current post as an Associate Pastor. “It’s very humbling,” Carter says, “that God is using me as an instrument to serve others.”
Transcript
The following program is sponsored by evangelical life
Ministries. Welcome to engaging truth, the manifestation of God's word and the lives of people around us. Join us each week. As we explore the impact of his message of spiritual renewal from the lesson of forgiveness forwards in the crucible of divorce, to the message of salvation, learn earned by an executioner from a condemned killer to the gift of freedom found in the rescue of victims of human trafficking. This is God's truth in action.
Welcome to engaging truth. This is Dave Schultzer host for this evening. I've got a guess we've had on many times, and I truly love interview him because of the fact that he comes from a different place than a lot of us pastors come from. And so the interest level that I have, uh, in, in discussing life in ministry with many people will be a little bit different than with Tim Carter. Welcome Tim. Thank
You, David. Thanks for having me.
I was telling Tim earlier that of all the books that I have read over the course of years, we've been on the air and, and interviewing a lot of dads and moms and people who have authored these books. I never really thoroughly came to the grips with, um, a pastor who had walked through places where I have walked through, but not the way he did and that through a prison system talking about what he experienced there. So pastor Tim's book was, and is executioners redemption. And I encourage you to go to Concordia or is it on Amazon too? Both. Yes, both. Uh, execution is redemption a marvelous story of truth. How a man's life was transformed by the gospel alone and what that meant for him and for so many others to follow him. So welcome, Tim, I'm just tickled pink that you're here with us today, going through what you went through, but that's what ministers do. They sometimes walk with their shiny black shoes on, and sometimes they walk with their hip boots on that's right, David. So Tim, I'd like to go back a little bit in terms of your life and where was it that ministry began? How did it start for you as a, a, a realism when you had nothing original in your life to do with Christ or the word of God or anything? Spiritual, there
Were encounters in prison that grabbed my heart and, uh, kind of progressively brought me to my knees. Uh, I, and made me, uh, come to grips with, uh, that there was, uh, uh, a power bigger than myself that God was indeed real. And not only was he real, but, uh, I needed, uh, the grace and the mercy and the forgiveness, uh, severely that I was hearing about. And, uh, you know, there were a, a series of those, but, but God would just break away at the shell around my heart, uh, that was heartened a against, uh, believing in the Lord or believing that I needed, uh, forgiveness. Uh, and so just incident by incident, I, you know, there, I believe it started, uh, once upon a time when, uh, I was in serving, uh, or a supervising was serving of a meal in our chow hall, um, way back in the oh, early eighties.
Uh, when, um, uh, an inmate, I made a comment to an inmate that, um, that whatever that these inmates, uh, the inmate was working for me helping to serve dinner to these inmates, coming to the child line, made a comment to the inmate that, uh, these boy, these inmates out of, uh, a tank, uh, they really smell bad this morning. And the inmate turned to me with, uh, hurt in his eyes. And he said, uh, you know, boss Carter, he said, you just don't understand. You don't understand there's another side to life. And he said, uh, he referred to them as part of himself. And he said, we, we didn't have showers and running water and fresh clothes like you do, like you did growing up. And he said, um, you know, you just need to have, uh, mercy with those folks. And that touched my heart and it started to break away and melt my heart a little bit.
So that was kind of the beginning. Uh, there were many, uh, I guess the biggest one was, uh, Dr. George Beto, uh, well, criminology professor who used to be a, a, a Lutheran minister as well. And I was counseling with him one time saying, I, I know you're a Christian, but also, you know, and I know that in prison, kindness is weakness and you cannot be a successful, uh, keeper of the peace and restore of the peace, uh, and be a Christian at the same time. And he, and he, God used him and he read Matthew 10 16 to me, uh, which says, uh, by Jesus, he says, I send you out into this world as a sheep among wolves. And as a sheep among wolves, you must be as SHR as a serpent yet as gentle is a dove. And Dr. Beater told me that you, at that time, I was a prison captain. He said, you captain Carter. And he said, you're great at being SRU as a serpent. And you're horrible at being gentle as a dove. Uh, he said, so, uh, did he explain that to you then,
Uh, he said, it will take the rest of your life to digest that he said, but you need to chew on that for the rest of your life. He said, you, uh, have been trying to be a Christian, but you think that you're an agent of God's wrath as a Christian and an agent of God to punish these evil inmates. And he says, actually, uh, Christ died for those inmates just as much as he did for you. And he loves every one of them, just as much as you, those inmates that you despise and don't have patience for, and can't stand, God loves the him. And he said, if you would go back and read the word of God and listen to the gospel, not just law and let God's gospel speak to you. And so it answer to your question, David is things like that God used to really, and that that's never left. My conscious, never left my heart. And I have been, um, coming to grips more and more for the rest of my life. That he's right. He was right. That I am, my sins are just as offensive to God as any inmate sins have ever been. And I need God's grace, just as much as they do. And somehow, if I really am a Christian, I need to love the people that I've considered unlovable, just like Jesus loved me.
Ooh. What an experience to have to hear from the lips of Dr. Beto
That is correct. Uh, that's correct. He's not known for that. Uh, and, uh, so yeah, he didn't spend much time with me after he told me those things. He said, now you get back to work. And, uh, he said, but this time, uh, let God's word speak to you and you need to hear and live the gospel, not just the law. And so that's, that's it, I mean, our conversation was less than five of minutes,
But the beauty of it is that it not only turned your heart toward a different thinking process, but it made you say on the inside, well, maybe it something to say to this, maybe, maybe this gospel does have something to say to me anyway.
That's exactly right. And so, uh, God did speak to me through several instances like that. And Dr. BETOS was probably the most, uh, thing that changed my heart soften and broke my heart. There were many, and we could talk for a long time about many things that continually broke my heart, but, uh, Matthew 8 28 says that God we'll work all those things together for good. Uh, for those who love him and are called according to his purpose for the purpose of shaping us more into the likeness of his son. And so each one of those did that, David, uh, and so Jesus loved the unlovable, all of us. And, uh, and I knew progressively that if I really am a believer, if I really want to, um, be a man after God's own heart, I have to pray constantly to love like he loved. And so it's been a journey, uh, of progressive, uh, uh, victories over my old self.
What would you say ought to be the highlight of all ministry, whether it's in prison or whether it's in church or whether it's in the hospital, the, of the highlight of all ministry that God has given us, what would be that highlight to you?
Well, we need to approach anyone and everyone, uh, with the attitude, uh, a ministry attitude of humility, uh, that God loves this person, whoever they are and whatever they might need, there is the, the serious possibility, uh, and probability that if we are willing to not just let God's mercy and grace and love flow through us, flow to us, but flow through us. And so I'm gonna answer your question by saying the coolest part of ministry is when you all of a sudden realize that, wow, God is blessing this person through my conversation or through my just simply my acts of compassion and mercy. And maybe it's just simply listening. Sometimes the fact that I give somebody the dignity of listening and they know by watching me that I actually care. Uh, and so good question, David, and the answer is people it's, it's, it's powerful in ministry to where you know, that, you know, that God sure enough, it is loving that person and listening to that person, holding their heart, uh, speaking to them, speaking to them through me or through you, that is so humbling, uh, to where you, you just, not only do you know that, you know, that, you know, uh, that I am forgiven and say, but now I know that I know that, um, God himself is, I'm an instrument in his hand that is ministry.
When you know that something far beyond your ability is happening, that God is, uh, working powerfully, uh, through something that I'm doing that soul. It's powerful. It just shakes you. Uh, you you're, you never are the same, uh, from each, each one of those experiences to where you, um, uh, you know, that the word says that you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength and that God proves that through you. When you just, um, when you just try to know God enough to where you represent him. Well,
I, I would say there's nothing more beautiful for a pastor to see, and that is the, um, the scale as it were to fall from the eyes of someone who has lived ambivalence, who has lived indifference and all of a sudden the simple word that you and I have used, nothing new, it always been there, but that simple word that has been the one that has made the difference in that person's life to see the joy finally, that never existed before exists. Now,
No, that's a good words, David. Uh, when you say the scales fall from his eyes, the apostle Paul, uh, is who, uh, pastor Schultz is referring to. And I, oh my goodness, that has been a big part of my growth in my life because, uh, the apostle Paul says that, uh, there is no one that is a worse sin than him, uh, but God showed him mercy so that the rest of the world could know, uh, how much mercy and grace that God has. And I can relate to that cuz you're right, David, uh, I am so ashamed and embarrassed to the depth at which I had fallen. Nobody deserved God's grace less than me. And, uh, and so you are right. That's very, very, very humbling. And, uh, and it makes me, uh, not just shouldn't, uh, because I have been there, I, I, God has enabled me to realize that even the most unlovable of people, uh, yeah, yeah, they're actually more lovable than I was and still am. And so I still struggle not to be the old me. And, uh, so God has, has humbled me and still his humbling me. Yes.
When you look at the people in the world who have touched your life, I mean, at every level, not only just the ministry level, but, uh, the prison level, uh, some of the, the, the wildest people that you've ever met. But when you think of the people who have had the best or the most significant impact on your life, who would they be?
Um, I probably am gonna have to repeat some of the old things that you and I have talked about on here before. And, uh, and people that, again, God working through them unmistakably. Um, and so, uh, Carla Faye Tucker, uh, her execution, um, I was on the desk squad for a long time, and I was one of the executioners for the state of Texas and I, my team. And I executed a, a young lady by the name of Carla Fae Tucker one day. And, um, that execution experience, um, continues, uh, to grab my heart. Uh, and it was tremendous humbling process because during that process, she represented Christ so well. She loved God and loved us. We were her enemies. We were killing her and we did kill her that night. And she loved us with so much real, genuine compassion, genuine. She was ministered to us to where normally an inmate is that we are executing as doesn't like us.
Uh, we are not his friends and, and, um, or her friends. And, uh, but this lady didn't just like us. She loved us. And she was concerned about us. And, um, and I, in the middle of that execution and after that execution, and for a while after I was just humbled to realize that that convicted murderer loved God considerably more than I did. You just knew that you knew that you knew that that murderer who lots of the world hates. And part of me was condemning, um, she loved God noticeably more than I did. That was horribly, uh, humbling. And so that, um, was one of the most major ways that God humbled me and shaped my heart to, uh, to become a little bit more like him love, like he loved us.
Let me go back to your familial years, your mom and dad, brothers, and sisters, they knew who you were. They knew the kind of person that Tim was in his, in his unbelieving form. Did they say anything? Did they ever encourage you? Were they ever, um, um, a joy for you to listen to when you spoke to them or when they spoke to
You? And that's a good point, David, my parents were very, uh, graceful and merciful and, uh, and almost to the point of being unen enabler, I was, you know, when I was about 15 years old, I left the church. Uh, I've considered myself too smart to believe in dumb fairy tales like that, and did not go back to church for about 10 years. And my parents' hearts were broken, but they were just nothing but gentle and merciful. And, uh, they treated me like, I was just a, a wonderful person, even though I was rebellious. I mean, I did a, I ran away from home, stayed, gone for a while. I did a lot of horrible things back then and broke my parents' heart, uh, yet like, uh, our father, God, in the story of the parable of the prodigal, they welcomed me back and they loved me. And so, yes, I learned, um, that I needed, I needed that. I, I had something that a lot of people don't have out there. And, uh, so that was God used that, uh, to again, help me understand that I really that's, what real love was, is my not loving people when they love you. Uh, you know, rather, rather being able to love people, even when they don't love you, uh, like the way I treated my parents, they love me anyway.
And so that was it a surprise to mom and dad and siblings of the way God finally touched you, you, in a way to bring you to him, even to the point of ministry,
Kind of yes, they were, uh, one of they, they use vocabulary of, uh, like the parents of the prodigal son. Uh, we kept fating the calf knowing and believing that someday they would be celebrating with the fatted calf someday. So they kept fattening the calf and they kept believing and praying. I love that phrase and praying and praying for me. And so, yes, I was blessed. I, my transformation was largely Indue to, to praying to, yes.
Can you minister, I shouldn't say, can, are you, uh, at a point in your life now where you not only minister to the seniors at Salem and all of other people who are facing difficult times, can you minister to people on the outside, for instance, like a other people who experienced what you experienced,
Um, by God's grace, he puts me in positions to, I, I do I minister to, uh, all kinds of people. God opens those doors to all kinds of people, people in, uh, he just puts them in my path. And so, yes, my experiences in life are varied and, uh, deep. And so God uses those experiences to enable me to relate, to have patience with and love people that most people have given up on and written off. And in the same way that people had patience with me, I have patience with some of the most unlovable people and not just patience, but by God's grace, I've learned to actually tremendously love and care for, and have a lot of compassion for people that few other people care about.
That should be wonderful. Uh, as you look back on your life, might you be you willing to tell us what you might have done differently than you did?
Uh, there's a lot of, uh, regrets at the same time. I've heard other pastors say fascinating things such as, even though some of their most embarrassing sins, um, that they would not change a thing from what happened to them, because God used those things to make them who they are. So based on me hearing other pastors say that, I agree with that. Um, so when answered your question, I really wouldn't change anything. Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm certainly embarrassed and ashamed, extremely ashamed at a lot of things that I am guilty of doing and who I used to be, but I guess, uh, God pulled me out of such a deep, deep pit, uh, that, uh, maybe, maybe I wouldn't be qualified to do certain things in life. Now, if I had not been in such a darkness. And so I guess I would not change anything because God's grace has been shown so powerfully because I was so dark
Because God uses even difficult situations in our life to, to, to rally us to a point of seeing him more graciously and more lovingly. And I think that's not just with you, but with me too. And I came from a pastor's home, you know, and I have have very spiritual people surrounding me on every side. Um, but I have to say the same thing as you. I, I would never change a thing. They all have been experiences that God has used to Edify me and Edify this as well. You too.
That's correct. Uh, and so I'm actually thankful looking back for those struggles and embarrassing situations because they, they have shaped me to be, have a heart a little bit more like the Lords.
You've got a chance occasionally to speak to moms and dads whose son or daughter, or whose son in particular, um, has she learned interest to going into ministry, but you also know the culture of today is different than the culture of 25 years ago. What would you say to them if they came to you and said, pastor Tim, our son is so moved by what they see of you and what you have done and experience that he wants to become a pastor too. What would you say?
Um, I would say praise the Lord, uh, that God has given your, uh, child a heart like that to want to serve and bless other people. Uh, you people don't arrive at a heart like that unless God enables them and breathes into them, uh, compassion to shepherd, uh, lost, broken sheep. And so I would say to those parents is God, I will rejoice with you that, uh, your child has that heart, uh, to serve the Lord and serve others. And, uh, I will be glad to pray and help you fan those flames. Uh, so that, that, uh, child of yours can just continue to grow in that direction.
We've got less than a minute. Tim. I'd like to have you close this with prayer. Let's
Do it, father. Thank you. Thank you for the good times and the bad times. Thank you for being with us and never giving up on us, uh, or leaving us or forsake us even when, uh, we deserved to be. So I can thank you for your mercy and your grace. Lord, help us to represent you well to others. Uh, so that we, uh, can share the grace that you have shown to us. We trust you for this, and we ask you for this Lord in Jesus name.
Amen. Thank you, pastor Tim Carter for this time together to join us again next Sunday night, may your evening be blessed and goodnight. Y'all
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