An Executioner’s Redemption

Welcome to engaging truth. I'm your host, Matt Popovits. And with me in studio today is pastor Tim Carter, author of the ex the executioner's redemption, my story of violence, death, and saving grace, Tim, welcome once again to engaging truth.

Thank you of having me

Here, man. Hey, we've had you on a handful of times, but your story is so fascinating. It it's worth repeating and digging even deeper into, uh, but for those who've who, who perhaps never listened to our show, never, never heard your, your really incredible story of journeying from prison to pulpit. Um, what, what's the quick overview of that journey?

I guess a quick overview, Matt would be that, um, as a youngster, I, uh, was going to school at Sam Houston state university and my friends, uh, encouraged me to maybe apply for and get a job there at night, uh, that it would be an easy job just to sit on a gun tower while I was studying during the day and do that at night. And so that's how it started. And then I was moved inside the building. I became a product of that environment, uh, and I ended up, it was gonna be just a job while I was going to school and I ended up staying there for decades and, uh, and I, uh, did become a product of that bad prison environment before, uh, eventually, uh, the word of God broke through that and started to, uh, change my heart.

So, so you were there in, in Huntsville, Texas that's correct? Correct. And, and you were there as a, as a member of the staff, not an inmate.

I was that's

Correct. But you, you eventually were working in, in death row, right? That is correct. And, and what, and, and what capacity were you working on death row?

Okay. Uh, yeah, for, um, many years I worked, uh, with the execution team, so I was on the death squad. Wow. And so I was, uh, at that time I was a captain and a J judge over our internal court system. And so in that position, I was placed, uh, on the execution squad, the death squad. And so I was a part of over 150 inmate executions. And so my role dealing with death Mo inmates was primarily on the day of their execution. And so death throw is at another facility. I was at the walls unit in Huntsville, Texas, where all the executions took place and, uh, death row is a couple miles, several miles away. And, uh, but on the last day of an inmate's life, he spends that day or she with us mm-hmm . And so I spent that day with the inmates.

So the prison chaplain, and I, like you said, I was, I was a captain. I was a judge of our internal court system. And I, uh, in that capacity and as a part of the death squad, I would spend that day with the inmate, um, kind of prepping him for what was gonna happen. And then I would eventually be the liaison between the inmate and his family who were there to witness the execution and also a liaison between, uh, us, the state of Texas and the families of the con families of the, who were there to witness the execution. Wow. And so that was my role during most of the ex uh, executions. And, uh, but I also would go to death row on occasions for other purposes, but my main working with death row inmates was actually being a part of the capital punishment process.

So, so you're in a, are facing with, with the condemned yes. Uh, with their families. That's correct. And, and also with the families of victims, you, you were seeing really all sides of this, right? I did. Yes, sir. And, and, but this, at this time, in your life, while, while you're doing this, you you're not yet in, in, in pastoral ministry, are you?

Uh, no, no. Not in any pastoral ministry at all yet.

And for most of that time are, uh, are you, are you a Christian

By the time I was assigned to the Des squad, I was a believer and a growing, growing believer in Christ at that time. Wow.

Um, in your book, which is, which is, which is fascinating, you, you, you mentioned a woman named Carla Faye Tucker that's correct. Who, who was

FA she was the first female to be executed in the state of Texas and across the nation for many, many decades. And, uh, so she gained a lot of notoriety and media attention, uh, and her execution drew a crowd of many thousands of protestors for and against her execution. And I guess the one main thing that made her stand out, uh, was that she did have a real, uh, conversion experience in prison. Many inmates, um, have a conversion experience. So some of 'em are real, some are not. And, um, not that I'm God and judge their heart, but, you know, and they end up proving one or the other, uh, Carla FA Tucker had a very real, very genuine and very deep conversion to love know and follow the Lord. And that grew over many years, she became a, uh, profound, um, representative. Uh, she represented Christ very well reflected Jesus very well. And so that experience of her coming to the death house and us carrying out that execution of Carla Faye Tucker was a bizarre and weird and different and profound experience because she was a female. And because she was, um, a very strong

Christian and, and she had an impact on, on you personally, right? That is correct. That's talk about that.

Yes. I, I hate to talk like this, Matt, but, um, but doing 40 executions a year sometimes, and doing several in one week, many times and doing this for many years, I don't wanna say that my heart became calloused, but it kind of did. And, uh, and so I hate to say that I became used to such a thing, but I kind of did mm-hmm , uh, but this was entirely different. And so I was not used to, and was not prepared for, I heard that she was a Christian, there's a separate death row for males and females. And she lived out on female death row. And so I've never been to female death row, and I had never met her, but I had heard that she was a Christian. And, but we have had some other inmates that have come to execution day and that we have executed that were Christians.

And so I wasn't overly, uh, animated or concerned about this, but I was curious, uh, but her testimony that she lived out and that last day just, uh, really was used of God, like you said to affect me personally. Hmm. I, um, I just witnessed her doing so many, uh, things and , she was not at all drawing any attention to herself. Her sole mission was to draw attention to God and to be a blessing to others around her. And so normally the, the behavior of someone on that, in that execution holding cell and on that, uh, in the last day of their life is, is either fear or anxiety or anger or rebellious. And she had none of those. She was a complete piece, zero fear. And not only that, but, um, she, you could tell that she was, um, just set on blessing every, everybody that she came into contact with.

And so the, those of us that were members of the staff, she was, um, thanking this profusely for being so kind and taking care of her mm-hmm . And, uh, even the people that brought her, her last meal, she was just so complimentary. She, oh, you know that, uh, and so she was just blessing everyone. And so total, no concern for herself turn for everyone else, which is very, uh, not typical even to the point where we had female guards from female death row, come with her to assist us in this, because we have never done that before with a female. And the female guards were doing things that we weren't used to, they were crying, uh, as they had grown to appreciate and respect, uh, this inmate, inmate Tucker. And, uh, they were very sad that she was about to die and, uh, I'm not used to seeing prison cards cry.

Uh, and so, but, uh, inmate Tucker Karle Tucker's response to that was that she would just say, don't worry. It's gonna be okay. I'm going to be just fine. And, uh, she would say powerful, amazing things such as, um, uh, you know, don't worry about the fact that I'm going to die. She said, I already died a long time ago to self. And, uh, and so she said, I, I deserve this. I, uh, I have no desire to avoid it. And, uh, and so, but, you know, don't worry, don't worry about me, you know, and she said, I'm praying for you and you're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. And so those are just some of the events that day.

So, so she truly had the, the new Testament talks a, a piece that surpasses understanding, um, uh, a piece in the face of death that, that is really something that's, that's hard for many to wrap their minds around, as you're, as you're facing you quite literally your own judgment and execution. She, as you described, it had a, a profound, deep sense of peace that I, that I imagine is just, would be baffling to many

Good, uh, way to describe that Matt, good way to describe that that is very accurate. And she did have a piece that, uh, just, uh, is beyond, uh, human understanding. Uh, again, any, you would think that any normal person would be, have a little anxiety or nervousness, uh, as the clock ticks down on closer to your death. Yeah, but she had zero, yeah. Zero anxiety, zero concern, except, uh, for the comfort and the blessing of those around her. Wow. Wow.

I, I would imagine that as you, as you changed careers and ultimately became, became ordained, um, uh, in, in, in ministry and, and serve in a pass as a pastor in a, in a very different context than, than, uh, uh, than, uh, at the, uh, at, at death row, um, that there are some things that you learned in your time in prison work that, um, have been surprising, surprisingly be helpful to you perhaps in, in parish ministry and church life. What are some of the things you, you learned from your work, um, uh, in, in that, uh, uh, in, in that grim place in prison that is, that has ultimately helped you or served you well in pastoral ministry? Anything?

Um, I definitely Matt, that's another good question. And that is that, um, yes, I, back then, I didn't realize it didn't think anything about it, but, uh, now looking back, God definitely used each and every day of those experiences to prepare me for what I'm doing now in pastoral ministry. I, uh, and I counsel a lot of people and I know a different side of life than most people know, and I can, unfortunately we do have a large church of thousands of people. And, and, uh, not that that's a big deal, but what that means is when you have that many people, you'd also have a lot of people. Who's grown, adult children are in jail and in prison. And so that large congregation means that I visit a lot of our members and our members, children, and grandchildren in jail and in prison, uh, constantly.

Uh, and so I hate to say that it's not that our church is a bunch of, you know, violent, dangerous people, but that just happens. And, uh, and also, we also have a lot of young people that are almost in jail that are in, uh, fighting serious temptations and struggles. And so I found myself counseling them, counseling their parents, uh, and then, uh, and then doing visits and counseling in prison and in the penitentiary. And so all those, um, I can definitely have been equipped and enabled by God to relate to those people and to talk to them on a different level than maybe most people can talk to them. And God kinda led me through, allowed me to go in the wrong direction. I, I, in the first couple of years of my prison career, I became very, uh, uh, dark and, uh, not a nice person and I did not have any love or any IRA for God.

And, uh, that changed, uh, God broke through that. And so that transition, uh, has enabled me to have a very humble heart today. I identify with the apostle Paul, uh, in first Timothy to where he says, I am the chief of sin, the worst of sin. And so Paul is the most powerful, coolest, uh, you know, apostle and preacher and evangelist. And, um, and so that I, Paul is very humble in that, and that made him effective. And so in, in a long answer to your question, Matt, uh, things like that is that, uh, I can relate to people that are agonized in their physical challenges and in their spiritual challenges, people that want to commit suicide people that can't live with themselves because of what they've done. I've been there. I've been there, uh, and I'm still there. Uh, and, um, and so God has given me a heart of great race and mercy and compassion to people that most people struggle to love. And throughout all of that mad, God has given me a, uh, an ability and a desire to love and to bless those people that, um, other people are just thankful and glad that they're behind bars and behind big thick walls and that they don't have to see. Yeah.

Well, what about, what about just discipleship and following Jesus in general? Was there, was there anything that you learned, uh, from your time in that work, um, administering to the con working with at that time to the condemned working in a prison setting, or even just from watching someone like Karl FA Tucker, um, is there anything you learned about, uh, discipleship, a life of following Jesus from your time in the

Prison? Yes, sir. Uh, there's a couple of profound things. I guess one of the biggest was that, uh, I had become a believer, uh, a couple years into my career. I started reading the word of God for the first time ever, uh, at about 25 years old and, uh, had never read the word, uh, didn't believe in the Lord didn't want to. And, uh, and so I became a believer. I was reading God's word , but I was this, this discipleship path that you're talking about. It's a great question because I was being discipled at that time by a radio minister that was all law and no gospel. And he was into, uh, just fire and brimstone and little, or no, grace mm-hmm . And so I was being raised up like that. And so that actually made me feel more justified in the very violent life that I had before I knew the Lord mm-hmm .

And so I, I was an extremely violent person in prison, was very violent. Uh, back then, especially in the eighties, uh, it was a very violent decade in, in prison, and I not just was a part of that violence, but I back then my old self used to love that violence. I used to love to fight, right. And I used to pump iron and run wind sprints all day, every day for years, so that I could be better at fighting. And, uh, so I'm, I'm ashamed to say that, but it's true. And as a part of my discipleship, that first phase of my discipleship made me feel like I was an agent of God's wrath, and that made me even a more fierce physically fighting person. But then, uh, that caught up with me and I, things were not going well in my life. And, uh, I hit a lot of ugly mean bumps in the road, a lot of consequences, uh, for that type of a life.

And I went to counsel with, uh, one of my criminology professors back then, who was Dr. George Beto, who happened to be, uh, a retired Lutheran pastor and a, uh, retired, uh, he was a leader of, uh, a couple of, of, uh, Concordia universities. And, and, uh, so, uh, I told him, I said, I heard you are a Christian. And I said, I'm trying to be a Christian in prison, but it's impossible to be an effective prison employee and keep peace and control and to keep stern control and to love and follow the Lord. And Dr. Beto told me, he said, he read to me one scripture, verse Matthew, 10, 16. I, uh, called you out to, to be a sheep among wolves, and to be a sheep among wolves, you must be as SRU as a serpent, yet as gentle as a dove. And Dr.

Beto told me you're great at being SRU is a serpent. And you're horrible at being gentle as a dove. So he says, you've got selective reading and listening to God's word. He said, you need to listen to the whole gospel and you need to listen to and absorb grace, uh, and mercy, and being gentle, not just being stern and being shrewd. He said the, the God sent his son to save those inmates just as much as you and Jesus died on the cross and shed his blood for those inmates that you hate just as, as he did for you. And he loves them every bit, as much as he loves you, and you need to learn to love like that. Wow. That was a huge turning point. My discipleship has been shaped in that direction ever since. Wow,

This is as good a moment as any for me to pause and remind our listeners that engaging truth is listener are supported. We're a 5 0 1 [inaudible] not for profit, and our hosts are volunteers. And it's your donations that help us to remain on the air and hear stories like pastor Tims. You can go to our website@elmhouston.org to donate and at our website again, E LM, houston.org, you can access podcasts of past engaging truth programs or use tab to ask us a question comment on our programming, or submit a prayer request. Uh, Tim working, where you did, you saw what some would say is kind of the worst of humanity. Um, and it's very easy for, for those of us. Who've, who've never done anything, um, uh, to make it worthy of being on death row, uh, to, to demonize. And, and to think that there's a world of difference between those who've committed such horrible crimes and the rest of us. And, and yet the scriptures talk about the whole of humanity being, um, being not just broken, um, but, but desperately sick. And, uh, and, and even even evil at its core. Um, what did, what did you learn about human nature? That is true for all of us while working in that environment.

I learned, uh, by some fascinating things such as Dr. BETOS interview, but also, uh, I learned some FA listening, things met from the family of the inmates. I would work visitation weekend, uh, once a month, for years and years and years. And I would talk to a lot of the moms and dads of the inmates on visitation day mm-hmm and, and the parents would tell me things like my son is a really good person, you know, and this is what happened to him. And I would learn some stories and it would start to melt my heart a little bit, because all I'd ever seen is their son, the jerk and the trouble causer and the whatever crime he committed and whatever crimes he still commits. Uh, but I would see in these parents' genuine love, and that came to a head to, uh, the most profound lesson of that was, uh, during an execution night, when the mother of an inmate, she, she told me, um, she said, my son is a very special, uh, lamb of gods, you know, and I, and back then at that time, excuse me for, um, you might not be able to see this only hear it, but, uh, there is a, um, cracking a smile in my face, out of embarrassment, more than in a shame, but I, back then, my heart was thinking ma'am, uh, your son is not a special limb of God.

Your son is a horrible person. Uh, I can remember thinking that I didn't say that. Uh, but, uh, that, uh, was what I felt at the time. And, but this woman, this, this mother of the inmate, uh, she told me that she just loved her son. And he, she, she was, he was, you know, he had taken some turns that had broken her heart during her life. And dear listening to her, my heart began to break, but God shattered my heart during the execution itself. I escorted that mother back into the witnessing area to allow her to witness the execution of her son. And I stood right next to her, as she watched her son be executed. And she walked in and, uh, there was a, her son strapped to the death gurney, uh, with a boom mic over his face. And he was gonna be dead in just a few minutes.

And, uh, she started to cry as soon as she saw him. And the inmate said to his mother over the boom mic over his face, he said, don't cry, mom, don't cry. I'm gonna be okay. And, um, and so she, uh, kind of, if you wanna call it, sucked it up. And she, uh, said, okay, okay. I won't cry. And she didn't. But then, uh, as the inmate was given his last words, uh, she was doing something that I know you can't see, oh, uh, if you're listening to this over the radio, but the lady there's a Bulletproof glass between us, uh, me and the family, uh, and the inmate on the strap G he's only about 10 feet away, but there's Bulletproof glass between us and the lady reached out and she stroked her hand on the Bulletproof glass. Many times just STR in her hand.

And I would, was wondering what in the world is she doing? And I realized that she and her imagination, and with her whole heart, she was stroking her pants through that inmate's hair, her son's hair. And she was just rubbing her child, her innocent child that she gave birth to, and that she raised in innocence. And she was stroking the, her of that child, not the murderer that we were executing, but the, but the child that she loves so much. And at that moment, God shattered my heart. And I was thinking, that is God's love. Yeah. Yeah. God sees that guy just like that. And, and I can remember thinking, oh my goodness, Dr. Beto was so right. Uh, that I need, I need to be humbled with every ounce of that, you know, and this is doing it. So yes, that was a, a big part of it. What,

Well, Tim, what a, what a powerful story and an incredible picture of the gospel that God loves us. Just like that mother loves that son. Yes, sir. Despite all the things that that son had done wrong, but then also that Jesus Christ took that very spot for us with arms laid out, dying for the sins of the world, crying out to his own mother and telling her it was gonna be okay that Jesus Christ would die for us that way. As a condemned man, though, he had done none, no wrong so that we who deserve all punishment could be called sons and daughters of God. Thank you so much for being on engaging truth for sharing your stories. And for those who've not yet read his book. I can't recommend it enough. The executioner's redemption by Reverend Tim Carter. Thanks for being on engaging truth. Thank you,

Man. Thank you for listening to this broadcast of engaging truth. Be sure to join us each week at 7:00 PM at 100.7, the word be sure to check us out on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts, just search for engaging truth to help support our ministry, contact evangelical life ministries, post office box 5 6 8, Cypress Texas 7 7 4 1 0. Or visit our website@elmhouston.org. Find us on Facebook at evangelical life ministries. Thank you.