Facing The Fire

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Thank you, pastor John. It's good to be with you today.

So you've written about a book about, uh, events in your life. Tell us about facing the fire

Facing the fire is a book that, uh, really is the testimony of, um, my experience of being terminated from employment as fire chief of the city of Atlanta after serving for 34 years in the fire service. Uh, and the cause of my termination was a few years prior. I wrote another book, uh, for a Christian then Bible study, uh, that spoke about biblical marriage and biblical sexuality. The theme of the book was Christian me and overcoming condemnation, but a few paragraphs spoke about biblical marriage and biblical sexuality. Uh, and those few paragraphs, uh, ended up pastor costing me my childhood dream come true career. So facing the fire is the story of how God had prepared me for that fiery trial, my entire life, and how believers today can be assured that if they ever faced the fire, that the same God that was with me and the fire will be with them.

So you had faced, um, a challenge to your, your faith at this time. What, why is it so important do you think to stand up for truth?

Well, uh, today, uh, in our nation and around the world, pastor John, uh, it is becoming increasingly more risky to be openly Christian. Uh, our nation has strived because of religious Liberty and freedom of speech. Uh, but now that we've become, so Boly blessed to many believers are faith are afraid to speak the truth, uh, for the fear of the consequences that come from publicly living our, our faith, um, the redeemed of the Lord are now afraid to say so. And, um, if we continue to be passive and silent about our faith, um, then the threat to those who have the courage and grace to stand on their faith will continue to increase. Uh, and we can, one day live in an America where our grandchildren and our grand grandchildren, uh, will have faced even more severe consequences for having the boldness to, to live out our faith.

So why do you believe that, uh, religious Liberty is, is good for everybody?

Well, because, you know, in America, one of the blessings of our country is, uh, we get to believe in worship God, as we choose are not choose. And, uh, and that's just good for everybody, uh, that the expression of sovereignty, uh, that you have in your heart can be lived out freely without consequences or interference. Uh, of course, in today's society. Uh, the protections that we formally express by I, uh, experience from the government for living out our faith is becoming more and more fragile as it relates to the Christian faith. A part of our mission in life, uh, is to spread the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to, uh, so that all who, uh, all may be saved. And, um, so to have a AATE that is silent, uh, or has consequences, you know, really is a threat to the fate that we have professed to walk in and live.

So in your life history, you were in a tough, tough battle with the city of Atlanta, uh, over this issue of your religious for freedom and your, your freedom of speech, uh, outside of working hours. Tell us what it, it took to overcome in, in how you were successful in that battle.

Well, it really started when I was a little bitty boy growing up in street, port Louisiana in abject poverty. Uh, when, um, my dad left my mother with six children to raise all by herself and she joined the Galilee Baptist church at the top of the alley that we lived in. And when we joined the church pastor, uh, the grownups used to ask us all the time, what do we want to be when we grow up? And, um, I would tell them, uh, I wanna be a firefighter and I, I want a family. I wanna be a husband and a dad, and I don't wanna be poor. And what they taught us as little kids was that all of our dreams were gonna come true if we believed in and had faith in God. Uh, if we, uh, got a good education, if we respected grownups and treated other children, like we wanted to be treated, they said all of our dreams were gonna go on Trump.

True. And so they instilled in me as a little boy, what it was gonna take for, uh, the American dream to come true. I was raised on faith and patriotism. And then from that foundation, pastor, I experienced fiery trials in my youth. Uh, I was one of the first African Americans on the Treeport fire department, and that brought with it fires other than the fires that I was fighting in the city. It brought a lot of fires of racism in the fire station. God delivered me from those fires. And, uh, I saw the hand of God, uh, in so many stages in my life that I'll talk about in the book facing the fire, uh, that I realized that God had prepared me for, uh, what I had experienced when I was terminated, uh, my entire life. And I knew that he was gonna be faithful with me, uh, during that fire trial.

Well, have to say that you have perhaps a bigger voice now than when you had, when you were in the, in the department. So give, give me some of the tools perhaps that were, that were put at your disposal to help you, you know, overcome this persecution and, and be successful.

Yes, sir. Uh, the, there are five things that I've learned that I share in the book that all believers can be encouraged by. Uh, the first thing is it's not a matter of if you're gonna be put to a test as to whether you have the courage and grace to live out your faith. It's a matter of when. And the, the first thing that I, I in the book is that God always prepares his sons and daughters for fiery trials. He always prepares us. So when we face that fiery trial, we need to have assurance that God has determined that we are prepared. The second thing that I've learned pastor is, uh, there are worldly consequences for standing on biblical truth in standing for Christ. Christians need to face the reality that there are worldly consequences for standing on biblical truth. And we need to have courage that we're gonna face the consequences.

The third thing is I call it the shouting lesson. There are also kingdom consequences for standing on biblical truth and standing for Christ. And the, the kingdom consequences are always, always greater than the worldly consequences. The challenge is there are too many believers who have more fear in the worldly consequences than they have faith and the kingdom consequences that Jesus has promised. The fourth thing I've learned is, uh, when we have the courage and grace stand pastor, uh, our enemies get to see a side of God that they have, they would have not seen had we not stood, uh, just like, uh, Nene made the decree, no one should worship any other God, but the God of Shara Nisha. And Avego, he got to see a side of God that he would not have seen, had three guys bowed down. But the other side of that is, uh, SHA rag Meach and Bendigo got to see a side of God that they would not have seen.

And so for us believers, we get to see a side of God that we would not have seen if we bow down to the culture. And then the fifth thing that I like to share and talk about in the book is for the believer who has the courage to stand pastor their life of blessing always goes to another level. That's exceeding, abundantly above all they could ever ask for. Think Joe was restored twice as much as he had Esther became, uh, she inherited the, in the state of Haman, the guy who was trying to kill off all the Jews, Joseph became the prime minister. Daniel actually became a prime minister after he came out of the lions. Then, um, Ruth actually married Boaz after her sufferings and going through her challenges. Jesus has the name above every name because he had the courage to endure his sufferings.

The life of blessing always goes to the next level for the son or daughter who has the courage and grace to stand. My personal experience is when I was fired as fire chief, uh, pastor my life went to a whole nother level. I was hired on staff at, as the chief operating officer for Elizabeth Baptist church in Atlanta, Georgia when I was fired. So I was still a chief in, in, in that particular title. And then here I am, pastor five years later, senior vice president of human resources and faith initiatives of Alliance defending for freedom. The same law firm that defended my case in one now has me on the team in a senior vice president position. God is still faithful to those who stand that he always takes their life to level that's greater than they could have ever imagined when they stand on his behalf. Jesus promised that whatever you lose standing for me, I will restore it 100 fold. And pastor I'm humble to, to say to you that my life is living proof, that Jesus was not exaggerating.

So I've seen the video, uh, that you gave on, uh, the ADF website. And I have not read your book yet, but could you tell our, uh, listeners where the, they can find, uh, this book of yours?

Well, thank you, pastor. Uh, it can be found on the online book, retail sites, uh, Amazon books, uh, Barnes and noble books. A million are three common ones where you can find facing the fire, the faith that, um, that, uh, per the fiery trial of, uh, the fire chief America's fire chief, excuse me. Uh, and, uh, you can also find more information about, uh, me and other ADF cases@adflegal.org. That's ADF legal.org.

So we're talking with chief Kelvin Cochran, chief, uh, tell us a little bit, uh, you mentioned the world and you mentioned the kingdom. So let's just define our terms here a little bit. What do you mean by kingdom?

Uh, the kingdom, as it relates to, uh, the kingdom of God God's kingdom that, uh, he desires to manifest here on earth, uh, and it comes through a relationship with, uh, uh, with his son, Jesus Christ as both savior and Lord. And of course the world is that, um, that realm, uh, side of, uh, God's kingdom, it's, uh, the world that is ruled by, uh, the father of lies, Satan and who has deceived, whose sole purpose is to deceive others, to keep them blinded from actually enter, enter entering into God's kingdom.

So tell us a little bit about what you experienced, um, during this fiery trial, you men, you mentioned Chad wreck, ack and Abednego. They had a fiery trial and God rescued them. Tell how, tell how you were, you fought through this and you were rescued.

So I, I mention, uh, pastor that I had written a book for a Christian men Bible study. The title of the book it was called, or is called, who told you that you were naked? It's the question that God asked Adam in the garden of Eden. And I have to remind people of that. Uh, that question came from Genesis chapter three, verse 11, because when they hear the question who told you that you were naked as the title of the book, some people draw the conclusion, man, no wonder you got fired with a title like that, but that was a book. Uh, that's the question that God asked Adam in the garden of Eden, uh, and it was written pastor because a lot of Christian then still struggle with condemnation and guilt and shame. And so, uh, that's the theme of the book, but a lot of men still struggle with sexual sin.

So there was a few paragraphs in the book where I talked about God's purpose for sex and his intention, uh, for sex to be between a man and a woman and holy Mamo. Uh, he wanted them to enjoy it, but he also wanted them to multiply and increase the population of his sons and daughters around the world. And it was those pages that offended and openly gay Atlanta city council member, who complained to the honorable mayor, PSIM Reed, uh, who supported that platform and that had agenda, uh, and he felt it was necessary to suspend me for 30 days, uh, so that they can investigate to determine if I had ever used my biblical views on marriage and sexuality to discriminate against anyone. The investigation exonerated me of any type of discrimination. I was determin by many of the members they invent interviewed to be fair.

And just however, after the 30 day suspension I was fired anyway, I was actually given an ultimatum to resign or be terminated, uh, and to resign with me, I would throw in the tile pastor and, uh, the, the city of Atlanta would set a platform to where anyone else could be persecuted and vilified for ex publicly expressing their faith. And I knew that was not the right decision. So, uh, I was terminated 34 years of service ended abruptly because of living out my faith. I was not vested in the pension system. So there was, uh, a tremendous loss. Uh, I had no idea how I was gonna fight, uh, how I was gonna pay my bills or take care of my family. But none of that mattered in the moment I just trusted that God was gonna take care of me, me, uh, and he did. I discovered that there was a Christian law firm called Alliance, defending freedom who came alongside me and took my case. And after a four year legal battle, uh, won the case, uh, it was determined that the city of Atlanta's terms of termination were unconstitutional and against my first and amendment rights and the city had to pay a large settlement, uh, and to vindicate me of, uh, the losses that I had, uh, incurred

We'll come back to, uh, chief Cochran in just a moment. First I'd like to, uh, tell our listeners about our radio programs, website, E LM, houston.org. If you go to that website, you can read more about us. You can download podcasts of our past radio programs. You can find shortcuts to our Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube accounts. You can also donate to support our work, all of our, on the air hosts our volunteers. So your donations go to help us purchase air time. We strive to have a wide variety of interviews with people who are on the cutting edge, people who have, uh, been creatively sharing the good news of the salvation that is ours through Jesus Christ. And, uh, these interviews such as the one with the chief Cochran today, they're, uh, they're in sometimes tough place where faith meets life. We encourage our, uh, listeners.

You can also write us at Elm PO box 5 68, Cypress, Texas, 77 4. Oh. And now back to our guest chief Tellis, uh, a little bit more about your history as a, uh, a fire chief, you know, what I've heard and what I've uh, seen about you, you are probably about the least discriminatory person on the planet. And tell us just real briefly what you put into place before you were accused of all these terrible things. Uh, it just struck me as the greatest hypocritical attack ever. Yes, sir. Tell our listeners a little bit of the kind of things that you had already put into place.

Yes, sir. Well, you know, being a believer, uh, and becoming into my childhood dream career as a firefighter, as one of the first African Americans in Shreveport, uh, I mentioned how I really dis experienced the horrors of discrimination and racism, but it was the faith that was instilled in me that got me through those difficult days. I just felt, uh, pastor John, that, um, that was a calling on my life to demonstrate that people of color, uh, could actually faithfully serve and be competent in the career of, of firefighter. And so I focused more on developing my skills and proving to my brothers, uh, that I loved the career. And I, I was, uh, honorable to my leaders, no matter how I was treated. And I was gonna honor my, uh, peers, uh, in spite of the way I was treated. And, uh, over time that light and love of Christ actually began to change hearts, uh, because I was committed to professional development through the years and four years, I became a captain, uh, and it usually takes 12 to 15 years.

In 10 years, I was an assistant chief. It usually takes about 20 to 22 years. In 18 years. I became the fire chief of the city of Shreveport, the first African American and youngest fire chief in its history, all by the grace of God and because of how I was treated when I was, uh, uh, coming up through the rank, God, put it on my heart. Now you, the authority to put in place practices where no one else will have to go through what you went through. So I used the collaboration of the minimum women department to develop a vision statement and a mission statement and core values of how we would treat one another and how we would treat the public. And we governed else that way. Uh, every single day, when I went to the city of Atlanta, they didn't have that structure in place.

Uh, and so we, uh, collaborated with a diverse group of men and women to put a system in place. Uh, and I remember our core values in Atlanta were predictable, excellent accountable, competent honesty, integrity, and isn't free is free. Was our way of saying no racism, sexism, favoritism, nepotism cronyism. Our greatest is, was gonna be professionalism. And we call that the Atlanta fire rescue doctrine, and we held one another accountable to that system every single day. And so it was those things that called me, uh, without even quoing scriptures to lead in a godly way. And the results spoke for themselves. We had a tremendous, uh, culture and our service to the citizens was always exemplary. And cause of that track record, uh, president Obama appointed me to be the head of the United States fire administration. And now pastor, he is a boy who grew up in Shreveport, Louisiana on raised on food stamps and welfare in a shotgun house who had a childhood dream to become a firefighter. Now is the highest fire official in the United States. It's only by faith and patriotism, uh, in America, that those dreams are possible. And so those are the things that, uh, really caused me to lead, uh, the way it was by the grace of God and the tens of our faith, uh, that were instilled in me through the years,

Chief, I strongly believe from scripture that, uh, every Christian has got a plan, a God given plan direction for their life and a vocation. What would you tell someone who's listening, who isn't sure what, uh, God wants them to do with their life? Do you have any?

Yes, sir. I, I love that question because that's a question I'm asked a lot that that is the Bible is clear that God has predestined us to a calling. And, uh, every, I would say to our listeners, every job you've ever had has been a divine assignment that leads to your colleague. Um, in my case, my first job was a paper boy. And then I was, uh, a cook at Arthur treater's fishing chips, and then a cook at El Chico's Mexican restaurant and then catfish kitchen. And then I became a firefighter and then from a firefighter to a captain, from a captain to assistant chief assistant chief to fire chief, been Shreveport to fire chief in Atlanta to the United States fire administration, you know, to back to Atlanta, to the chief operating officer of Elizabeth Baptist church, and now senior vice president at Alliance, defending freedom, God predestined, all of those jobs as a part of my calling to place me where I am today.

And he does the same thing for all believers. There's never a job that you've ever had. That's been a mistake. God is using all of those to equip you for greater divine assignments in your future. But this is what I've discovered. Pastor many people will never walk in the fullness of their calling unless they're faithful to their purpose in their families. God does not give divine assignments to his sons and daughters who are not faithful in their family relationships. And so to really, if you really wanna discover what your calling is and thrive in it, make sure your, you a faithful son to your mother and father, you're a faithful husband to your wife, your faithful father, to your children, your faithful grandson to your grandmother and grandfather, of course. And for, for ladies, that's being a faithful daughter to your mom and dad, a faithful sister to your brothers and sisters being faithful in family relationships. Uh, God will bless you with a calling or divine assignment. Uh, that just brings out the joy in the work that he's given you to do.

That's very well said, chief. I like what you have to say. Well, once again, would you tell our listeners where they can get more information, um, about your books or also, uh, uh, check out that, uh, that brief video that, uh, details your life and, uh, what you're doing now?

Yes, sir. The video summary of this whole story can be found at, uh, ADF legal.org. That's ADF, legal.org, and the book facing the fire, uh, can be found on Amazon books, uh, Barnes and noble.com books, a million.com and other online book purchasing outlets.

Well, God's blessing as, uh, you continue to be faithful to God's calling on your life and, uh, being a witness of the goodness of God, to all the people that you meet to our listeners. Thanks for being with us. Join us again real soon for another edition of engaging truth. Goodbye.

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