Liberty Alert: Religious Freedom in the Workplace – Guests ‘303 Creative’s’ Lorie Smith and ADF’s Matthew Sharp

The following program is sponsored by Evangelical Life Ministries.

Welcome to Liberty Action Alert with Greg Seltz, sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty here in Washington, dc a program that cuts through the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to Kingdom citizenship, bold, biblical principles for a robust public Christian life. And now, your host, Dr. Greg Sells.

Good day, Good day, Washington, DC

And friends of the program all around the country. I'm Greg Seltz. Welcome to Liberty Action Alert. Today in our program, we are privileged to have with us 3 0 3 creatives, Lori Smith and senior counsel from Alliance Defending Freedom, Matthew Sharp. And we're gonna be talking about an issue that this is why we are in DC for the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty. You should not be compelled to speak or to produce messages, especially by the government that violates your faith and violate your conscience. And, and Lori is taking up the charge. And so let me just start off to, to make it something where people can kind of get, can understand it or get their, uh, mind around it. Here's the question. Can the government force a Democrat speech writer to write speeches that promote the Republican Party platform? Or can they force an atheist to sing at a church's Easter service?

And we've got an op-ed that says, Does every deli need to be kosher? And obviously, the answer to those things are, of course, not, especially if there's, uh, other places down the road where you can get exactly what you need. Well, the, uh, courts have said to Lori, um, We're gonna compel your speech and we're gonna tell you what to say. And she said, No, Lori, welcome to the program. Um, tell us a bit about how you have gotten to this place. Tell us a bit about yourself, your business, and how you've gotten to this place.

Well, thank you for having me today. I am a Colorado native, born and raised, and I've always been creative. My parents were incredibly creative. My mom owned her own boutique growing up where I spent a lot of my time helping her and watching firsthand what it looked like to own a business. Okay. So I, I stayed here for college and ultimately, after working many years in the corporate, private and public sector, I decided that I wanted to exercise my creativity and think outside the box. So I started 3 0 3 Creative about 10 years ago. Okay. And I decided to take that step because I wanted to pour my time and talent into things that I was passionate about, Right. And to help my clients. So I started 3 0 3 Creative. And the best part about my job, I get to create and design websites and graphics and logos.

I work with people of all backgrounds and all walks of life, right. Including those who identify as L G B T. And I love the creativity and working with different people. And while I'm happy to work with everyone, I'm unable to promote and celebrate and create and design for all messages. Right. And what's landed us, uh, in this interview today is that over the last six years, I've been challenging a Colorado law that forces me to set aside my deeply held beliefs. Right. And the law is forcing me to communicate messages that violate my beliefs. And if I don't, they're threatening all sorts of punishment.

Yeah. And on top of that, you know, you, you're in the same vicinity as Jack Phillips and he's still fighting for his freedom to act. You know, they've tried to bankrupt him several times. And I keep saying to people for, for basically holding that marriages between a man and a woman in the biblical notion of sexuality within the bond of marriage, which is the Bible's view. It's been the Bible's view for thousands of years. And if you don't agree with that, okay, fine. We're not compelling you to believe otherwise. But to say that you must agree to the liberty is of today, uh, we're gonna put you outta business. And Matt, that's I think where I just struggle with our own church saying, you know, our church should be rising up and saying, You don't have the right to tell us to not be faithful to the scripture. So, uh, first of all, Matt, thanks for being here. But tell us legally where things are.

Yeah, so Lori's case is now at the US Supreme Court. Uh, we expect it to be argued sometime after Thanksgiving, uh, with the decision sometime in probably next early summer, something like that. But the big principle here is about free speech, right? Um, the free speech is for everyone. And just like what you were saying, we are defending Lori's right, to engage in free speech. But this same right, applies to every other artist, um, every other person, even those that disagree with Lori, because we should all be concerned about the government having the power to force Lori or any other artist to speak a message that they disagree with.

Well, and, and no one's compelled to use her service. She's gotta actually draw her clients in. She's gotta produce in ways that they think are valuable. And that's the tough part about being in a small business. And by the way, that's the American dream, the middle class that owning your own business. And for the government to come in and say, I, I guess, are they saying that this is where I think it's at? Are they saying that if you believe in traditional marriage, which we can argue is foundation to any healthy culture, there is that hate speech now? Is that where we're at with this? Because I don't know otherwise why they can come at you. I, I read in the that they compared some of your speech, or they compared Jack Phillips, some of his, uh, defense to, uh, stuff that, uh, defended slavery or the Holocaust or whatever. I mean, is it, is it that ridiculous now? And Matt, I'll leave that to you cuz that's more of a legal argument.

Yeah. Well, it's, it's tragic. This is about disagreements, about very important matters, matters of faith, matters of, uh, what marriage is and things like that. And all Lori is seeking to is that as she creates custom graphic designs, as she works with clientele from all walks of life, as she says, to be able to focus on messages that align with her beliefs. And yet, Colorado is like it did against Jack Phillips abusing its state law to try and force Lori to create messages that she disagrees with. And essentially saying if she refuses to do so, that she's a violator. And alliance defending freedom represents clients across the country, artists like Lori, that some of them are facing fines and even jail time for the exact same thing. And so it shows you the hostility the government has towards speech. It doesn't like that it is going to punish and censor simply because it disagrees with these messages.

And Lori, back to you, before the program started, I said, I've got even people in our church and it's a very, our church, a conservative church. And I had a person taking me to task online and, and basically saying, No one's speech is being compelled. They can speak whatever they want. And, and no one's suffering from this. And I'm thinking, Oh my goodness. You know, even even the Coach Kennedy case where he just won, he still doesn't have a job, you know, . And you start to think, what are these people not seeing? So Lori, to, to the church, talk to the people. You, obviously you're fighting for this, but you're fighting for this because you wanna share the, the loving message of God on God's terms too. That's what this is about. Right?

Of course, it is. When I decided I wanted to create for weddings, I wanted to create in a way that's consistent with what scripture tells us, right? And the beauty of marriage between a man and a woman and in God's, uh, through God's lens. And so to do that in a way that glorifies him, I wanna do that. And for those who say my speech is not being compelled, Well, there's, there's a couple things I'd like to say, please. For the last six years, for the last six years of my life, I've not been able to step into something that I've dreamed of doing. Wow. Since I worked in my mom's boutique, watching her customers come in, she was in the wedding industry, watching brides come in, I haven't been able to step into my dream for over six years now. And, and it's gonna be closer to seven when we hear a decision from the, the court, um, next June.

So, um, I have been threatened, um, not just by my, my government, but also people that don't agree with my views. Um, it has come at a risk. And what I hope that people hear through the next couple weeks, especially as we head to the Supreme Court, is that we don't have to have and hold the same views on marriage to understand that free speech is worthy of protecting. And the thing that I'm fighting for and standing for, and I'm hopeful that the court stands for, is the right for all Americans to speak freely. If your opinion on marriage differs than mine, you should have the right to be able to say so without threats of punishment or without hearing death threats or some other really vile things that I have been, um, the victim of over the last six years. So this is happening before our eyes. And I think it's very concerning to me that there are people out there who don't see the threat. Um, what the government is saying is that they can compel speech, right?

Well,

That's a violation of our first amendment, right? That each and every single one of us is guaranteed. And so, um, you know, I think a lot of, a lot of what I'm seeing is a lot of misinformation on the media. In the media, right? And I would just encourage your viewers and listeners to actually seek out the information because there's been a lot of, a lot of in misinformation, and I've always encouraged people to visit Alliance Defending Freedoms website to get a snapshot of what's actually happening. We don't always hear about all of it, but it's important to be educated and be in the know.

Well, I say it as simply as I can say it, which is, you know, in the Bible you have God's know. You also have God's yes on God's terms cuz he loves you and we are affected by his no, like everybody else, we are affected by his Yes. Like everybody else on his terms. And we now are people who are just as struggling and sinful or broken as everybody else, but we know this God who loves us, but we're gonna proclaim that love on his terms, on the Bible's terms. And when someone says, I'm sorry, you're not gonna do that. Now, if it's a conversation over the fence, uh, that's a whole different discussion. We try to dialogue. But if it's the government coercing someone to say, You will not say that. I'm sorry. That's just, that's where we're compelled to speak. And I think Matt, that's, that's what I've been trying to say to even our own people. This is a religious liberty issue for us. Even the whole notion of marriage, all we're saying is it's a religious liberty issue. We're not even asking the government to decide with us on marriage. We're just saying keep your nefarious hands out of limiting our freedom. So again, legally there was a dissenting opinion, uh, was it Timothy Tim Kovich, I think is his name, right? And he said it used to, you know, it seems like we've moved from live and let live to Now you can't say that that's a big move, isn't it?

It it really is. And, and as Laurie emphasized, it's been years that Colorado using its government authority has been silencing her from being able to years do the work that she loves from creating the expression that she loves and using her artistic talents in a way that she feels called to a government that has the power to do that. As you brought up in the examples earlier, it can tell a Democrat, you must create an ad for a Republican candidate. It can tell an L G B T web site design company that you must create, uh, graphics for a Catholic organization that's celebrating a religious view of marriage, a government that can do what it's doing, doing to Lori can censor and silence any America. And that's why what Lori is fighting for is the free speech of everyone of artists that share different views, different beliefs about all of this. But all of us should have that same freedom. And that is why you're absolutely right. We have to encourage everyone, uh, regardless of what side of the aisle they are on this issue, to stand with Lori to make sure that what is happening to her in Colorado, what is happening to Jack, what's happening to other artists like her that adf uh, is representing, does not spread and does not become something where the government can come in and silence any of us.

Well, and you just, it just brought back to my mind to the Nifle case in California where they were saying to pro-life clinics, you must advertise abortion. So again, folks, if you're out there saying, this isn't happening, it's absolutely happening. Th there's a movement, I think in the West, I call 'em secular blasts for me laws. We saw that in Finland where a bishop and a politician were actually put on trial by the government because the of their view, uh, of marriage, and I think ADF International actually represented them. And thank goodness they won after, again, several years of this nonsense. But the government's appealing, these secular blasphemy laws are gonna suddenly make certain Christian teachings publicly illegal. And folks, that means jail time, fines, and silencing and compelling you to even speak against your conscience. And I think that's what, that's what this is all about. Because if we win the case, we still have to love one another and love each other in the name of Christ. So Matt, I would say you had talked about how this law is, is being abused, I would say it's abusing people. Is that, is that accurate?

Yeah, I mean, we're definitely seeing government officials time and time again, going after people of faith and telling them, Your voice is not welcome here. Your art is not welcome here. Um, unless you speak the message we tell you to speak. And as we're seeing in, in Lori's case and so many others, um, that has real consequences for people, for their livelihoods, for their profession, as Lori said, this is not just a, a matter of her ability to use her artistic talents in, in the workplace, but it is impacting her and her family with the threats that they face. Because when the state comes against you like that, unfortunately there's other voices that, that join that, um, and really seek to, to silence and censor those that they disagree with. And that's why we hope everyone will continue to stand with Lori, to stand with artists that are speaking out about this and recognize that no one should be silenced or censored from being able to express their beliefs in their work and beyond.

Well, as one who's, uh, been in urban ministry all my life before coming on radio and things like that, um, I, that's what I found out fear is this is about fear and stepping through that fear to share your faith. And I loved what Kelly Shackleford from First Liberty Institute said to us on a program earlier. He said, This is the greatest time for religious liberty in his lifetime. But the church now with those protections, needs to step through the door and be the church in the public square for the sake of the gospel, but for the sake of people who don't know who Jesus Christ is. And I think, Lori, that's why I'm, I'm just proud to have you on this program today. You're stepping through the door and I know what it's like to step through. Well, not like you, but I know what it's like for people to step through that door. I know that people are still trying to convince you the door's closed. They're trying to convince you that you don't belong. And here you are saying, I've got this ability that God gave me, and there's this message that he's given me. I I just gotta step through that door and I sure would love to give it to you. So Lori, in closing, tell us, uh, what you'd want us to hear in terms of, uh, supporting you, why you're doing these things and, and how we can actually, um, keep on top of this prayerfully,

You know, the Lord, Um, I've not always been a believer in Jesus Christ, and I will elaborate on my faith story, but, um, through the process of, of trying to disprove God, I came to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. Wow. Um, I am truly a new creation and I want to celebrate and create in a way that glorifies and honors him. And what I'm asking the court to defend is the right to do that. And so, um, I would encourage your listeners today to informed about what's going on. And, um, I'm always open to those who are willing to pray for me and for those who, there are a lot of people at Alliance Defending Freedom who are preparing to go before the Supreme Court, um, to defend myself and the right to all of us, um, to speak freely. So I just encourage you all to, um, visit alliance defending freedom.org to learn how you might be able to pray or to support, um, my case or the others out there. And I also just wanna say thank you, um, to those who are covering myself and my family in prayer, it means a lot. It certainly has been a rollercoaster. Right. And I know that God's in control and ultimately the go is his. Um, but I, I really appreciate the prayers of support.

Well, you'll get those and you know, you just said something, I I would love to have you come back on the program later on, you know, maybe after the case or right before if you'd like to, and share your faith journey. Um, because one of the things we say on this program, whether it, you know, we're dealing with identity politics or c rt or any of those things, the, the Christian message finally is that your identity is in Christ. And that it, it's those things that, those other things that the world says, No, that's who you are. That's who you are. Those things, they don't necessarily fade away, but they find their proper place. And that identity in Christ then can start to bond us across all kinds of divides. And you actually discovered that by trying to actually say that that identity doesn't exist and you found out that there's a Lord who loves you even more than, than you can imagine. Wow. That, that's amazing to me. So thank you for sharing a little hint to that. And folks, um, keep watching cuz we'll get Lori back on someday just to talk through that. Matt, close us down in terms of legally, what, what are you up against? I know the 10th Circuit kind of threw a wrench into this. I can't imagine how they could say that they have the right to do this. What are you up against and what do you hope, uh, to be able to say to the court? Now,

As you mentioned, the, the 10th Circuit essentially said Colorado can force Lori to create expression that she disagrees with. Doesn't matter that there's over 250,000 graphic artists across the country. It believed Colorado can force Lori to speak a message. But the case law on this is clear. The Constitution is clear that the government cannot coerce individuals, artists like Lori to speak messages they disagree with. Uh, and so we are hopeful that the Supreme Court will affirm that the Constitution protects every American's right to free speech and protects them against government coercion.

Well, and give your website one more time so people can know where to go to find out more about this.

Yeah. So they can visit us at Alliance, uh, excuse me, adf legal.org. Uh, they can learn more about Lori's case, other cases like hers all across the country, um, to learn how to pray for her and how to support our efforts so that we're able to continue to represent Lori free of charge and many others across the country.

God's blessings to both of you. And I would just say this, folks, again, when you're thinking about this, we're trying to take the politics out of these issues. So again, we keep hearing all your political, this side, your political, that side. Honestly, what we're saying is, I'd rather you talk about this over the fence in your backyard with no government coercion racing in to tell one side or the other, what they can and cannot say. And then let the chips fall where they may let us, you know, let us learn. Let us love folks who differ from us in the way that Christ would want. And let's see what happens. And what we're finding out is that there are government officials who think you're not gonna do that, and we're not gonna let you do that. And that really is the gist of this issue. So folks, keep Lori in your prayers. Uh, keep Matt in your prayers because this is a case that will have wide ranging implications for a lot of us who do ministry in the public square. And I think we're called to be public Christians and to represent the God who says no, who says yes always on his terms. So thanks again for both of you being with us today. Thank

You. Thank

You. And I'll back, uh, on the program to talk a little bit about the implications of all this Tim gag line from Focus on the Family. Tim, what did you think of them? Lori and, and Matt?

Captivating, compelling, bold and stout hearted, uh, courageous. We at Focus on the Family because focus is based in Colorado, really over time has developed a marvelous relationship with the cake Baker, Jack Phillips, uh, whom you discussed in that great interview and who has really been oppressed Yes. You know, yes, over and over and over, including, uh, as recently as you know, in the last month. It just doesn't end. And of course, here we have another woman of faith who is, uh, having like a ton of bricks, the government come down on her simply because she is a woman of faith and is practicing her conscience. So I think it's just so important. Programs, dialogues, conversations like this to get the word out. These are real people with real businesses, with real families who have really experienced the, uh, powerful boot of government in a way that is really, uh, organically, Greg, I think in opposition to the most elemental sense of our First Amendment rights.

And, and I, I think for our people to really understand this, cause I agree with you, it is, it's a First Amendment case. This is First Amendment, First Amendment, but it also goes to the point where subtly our culture is redefining God's 10 commandments as hate speech. And, and that's the only way that they can make this argument. Because when I hear these, the argument for supporting marriage between a man and a woman and being able to just say, That's my conscience being compared to mind comp or being compared to Jim Crow laws or whatever. It's, it's utterly ridiculous to me because it's on the opposite side of all of those arguments. And so subtly our culture is, is this, this liberty teen culture is saying that any no, any moral no is hate speech if it offends me. Well, God's no, and God's yes on God's terms is the whole council of God, which finally comes to the cross and the resurrection of Jesus for our salvation. All of that is swept away if all this stuff gets defined as hate speech or secular blasphemy laws. And I don't think our church really understands that. That's underneath all this. What do you think?

You know, I I I I find that argument very, uh, important and very compelling at many levels. One of which it strikes me is a man who was not Lutheran and who was not evangelical, but had a lot to say about every single topic that you have discussed with Lori Smith. It happens to be James Madison, uh, who was the primary author of the United States Constitution. He was, uh, living in an officially Anglican, uh, Commonwealth of Virginia. And the Baptists, there weren't many of them then there are now in Southern Virginia. But in those days, uh, Virginia was an Anglican commonwealth. It was an Anglican state,

State church.

Yeah. Uh, and that's correct. And it was the Baptists who lived very close, uh, to James Madison who came and spoke very directly with him. And in part, as a result of those conversations, uh, Madison wrote, uh, Greg, what I consider to be one of the most powerful sentences ever written by any US president. He said, Conscience is the most sacred of all property, property. What a powerful observation. Right, Right. And, and what Madison meant is the following. What, what, what he meant is that if you can break an individual's conscience, that if you can violate his conscience through the sheer power of government, then frankly, uh, you really don't have a constitutional republic. That's what this case is about.

Tim, thanks for being on the program today. God bless you. Thanks for tuning in today. To get to know our L C LDC work better, check out our website at L c l freedom.org or check out our weekly word from the center opinion piece every Friday at facebook.com/l c l. Till next time, God bless you always. I'm Greg Seltz. Have a great week.

You've been listening to Liberty Action Alert with Greg Seltz, Executive Director of the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty in Washington dc. This program has been brought to you by the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty.