Liberty Alert: The Unjust Arrest of Mark Houck with guest, Thomas More Society’s, Peter Breen

The following program is sponsored by Evangelical Life Ministries.

Welcome to Liberty Action Alert with Greg Seltz, sponsored by our friends at the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty here in Washington, dc a program that cuts through the chaos and confusion in the culture today by talking to citizenship, bold, biblical principles for a robust public Christian life. And now, your host, Dr. Greg Sells. Good day,

Good day, Washington, DC and friends of the program all around the country. I'm Greg Seltz. Welcome to Liberty Action Alert, where every week we try to cut through the noise and take on the issues, especially the public issues that matter to you. People of faith. Today in our program, we have a very special guest. You've probably seen him on television lately. And, and actually that's not a good thing because the cases he's representing, uh, should give us all pause. These former Illinois legislator, now Vice President Senior Council of the Thomas Moore Society, Peter Breen. Welcome, Peter.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Well, again, as I just said, uh, I'd prefer that we didn't have to talk to you, but we do because you're, you're representing I think, two cases now. One of is Mark Ho and the other I just, uh, saw was, uh, Paul Vaughn. And these are, these are so concerning to our church and to our people. Let me just, uh, preface by saying, you know, the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty, I was sent to Washington DC to represent our churches, our schools, our preschools, religious liberties, sanctity of life, because those are foundational to a civil society. And yet what we see right now is, is real violence against pro-life clinics, desecrating clinics, churches. When I was in DC for the last election, I saw average people harassed on the street if they were of one political persuasion. Nobody gets arrested, nobody goes to jail. And yet we have what you're facing right now. So my first question is this, You know, religious liberty protections are beautiful, but, you know, are they any good if the federal government can do with you as you please? And is that what's going on here?

Well, and and that's a very good question. The, the issue is though, I, I, I, if you wanna take a little broader perspective, Okay. Our rights have, our, our, the other side has always been trying to, to curtail our rights. Uh, I mean, from, from early on. Uh, I mean, you can go way, way back to the beginning of the church. And obviously we were a persecuted minority then. So it's not like this is new for us as Christians. That's true. Yeah. I know. It really does help to kind of, you know, go back and, you know, think about, Well,

Let just, let me just jump in. You can keep that thought too, cuz I was just saying people don't understand the church is, is actually the only thing that can correct an out of control government. That's one of the reasons why these crazy governments wanna subjugate the church. But go ahead.

Sure. I mean, that, that's why we have religious freedom in our constitution, Right? Because the, the church is, it's another one of those private, uh, mediating, uh, structures to, to, to really keep the state at bay mm-hmm. . And so when, when we talk about some of the latest threats, uh, certainly they are new, uh, they are, uh, unique ways of trying to challenge us. Uh, I mean, you've got challenges to just, uh, fundamental human understandings of sexuality and biology. I mean, obviously abortion is, has for these last 50 plus years been a threat and, and a, and a challenge just to our understanding of the basics of human dignity, of who we are, uh, and our, our innate worth, uh, as people. Uh, and so, yeah, again, but, but I mean, we've always had those challenges. We've always had those who treated other people as, you know, just channel or what have you mm-hmm.

And, uh, at that time, there had been a, a great movement, uh, of rescues, we call them rescues in the pro-life movement, where folks who were drawing from the tradition of Dr. Martin Luther King, uh, where they would do peaceful sit-ins, they were doing that at abortion clinics and n mass. I mean, there would be hundreds if not, you know, there'd be thousands of people potentially at one of these sit-ins, very peaceful, but they would shut down the abortion clinic for the day or for a few hours or what have you. Um, and actually, just as a note, Dr. King said regularly, he had gotten the idea for this from Mahama Gandhi. Um, so what, what Gandhi was able to achieve against the, you know, the great British empire, and it just through total peaceful means, Right? Uh, so we were doing that, uh, uh, and, and look, uh, was it against the law?

Sure. Because this is against a trespass law, what have, you know, local ordinances. But, uh, because the abortion side had control of Congress, they were able to pass this law that made it a federal crime now, uh, you know, up to six months for a first offense. And then you start getting up to 12 and 18 months for later offenses. And if you had violence involved, it could go up to 10 years. You know, a bodily injury was what they had said. So a and, and that really, uh, also, they allowed for a civil cause of action, so the abortion clinics could sue, pro-lifers get an injunction, and then if you violate the injunction, then you've committed contempt of court, and then you can go to jail for a long time. Wow. Um, so that was, it was a very effective mechanism by the other side to stop the rescues broadly.

Uh, now fast forward to today. Um, you know, and I, I actually, I mean, I, could I give you a little more of a history lesson in terms of under the Obama administration, we fought this. Okay. And I think it's a good thing, uh, to, to look at. When Obama DOJ came in for about the first year, we didn't know this, they were investigating surveilling, peaceful pro-life sidewalk counselors outside of the nation's largest abortion clinics, about a year or so in to his term, they then brought suits, civil lawsuits to get injunctions against the sidewalk counselors at, at all of our major abortion clinics. So, uh, but, and how do we beat them? Because we did beat them clearly. We're still, we're still sidewalk counseling here. 10 years plus later, uh, there was a big case in Denver where we at Thomas Moore Society were, you know, I was, I was lead on that case as a relatively, a much younger lawyer.

You know, I had five DOJ lawyers outta Washington and they were throwing everything at us. Wow. But we were able to beat them back, uh, from the preliminary injunction phase. And then they, they dropped that case. Our colleagues at Liberty Council, uh, won a case down in Florida. And those two high profile losses cause DOJ to get scared, and they went off. Cuz you know, the worst thing for them is to lose. So you, you've gotta deliver a loss to them. Uh, and we had really little trouble second term of Obama, uh, because we were able to strike back strongly in court and win. So here we are today, Mark, how peaceful man, sidewalk counselor and, uh, uh, prayer vigil participant at, uh, he, he goes to both of the, uh, the major abortion clinics in the city of Philadelphia. The particular incident here is outside of the Planned Parenthood.

They do several thousand abortions a year. And it's in a very compact, tightly, uh, you know, very small part of this. I dunno how to describe it one way, streets it, Philadelphia is this beautiful old city centuries. So, I mean, you, you know, there's no, there's barely any parking anywhere. It's all very tight. Um, city living. It's, it is, but , but I mean, you know, I mean, I know Chicago very well, but I mean, this is, it's, it's city living and you're sitting there going, Ben Franklin might have been on the street. Right. Right. It's got a real, you know, I mean, you're sitting there, you can almost envision the horse drawn carts going down the, down the, the streets. I mean it, So you get this wonderful historic setting, and then this place of terrible evil, uh, this Planned Parenthood there. Yeah. And so Mark and, uh, and this, there was another gentleman in abortion escort, uh, you know, said to be 72 years old. They would, um, you know, Mark would counsel, uh, to women to take them across the street. There's a pregnancy center literally across the street.

Yeah. That's what I, I remember that there was, that he was actually there saying, you know, we have resources. If you want to, uh, change your mind, we can, we can

Well, Mr. Love walks out, leaves, leaves his post nearer to the gates of the Planned Parenthood, and goes over and parks next to Mark's son, his 12 year old son, and starts John with him, you know, a sixth grader. Wow. 72 year old man should know better than to do that. There were no patience around. There was no reason for Mr. Love to come over and engage Mark and his, and his young son. Uh, altercation ensues. Uh, Mark tells him to go away. The guy and, and Mr. Love starts walking back. He, he, he starts to go away, but then he turns around and then they have physical contact. Mr. Love, uh, goes to the ground. We're told that he scraped his arm. That's the bodily injury that allegedly would get, uh, marked 10 years in a penitentiary,

10 years in a penitentiary.

And that's the thing, you bodily injury. So they have to allege, you know, I, I had another face case in DC where they said, Well, someone sprained an ankle, you're going, Wait, wait. That's the difference between a six month first offense and a 10 year federal felony. Wow. So, so we have a couple issues here. Number one, 99% of the time, sidewalk counselors don't have issues on the sidewalk. Okay. But occasionally you have a very aggressive abortion escort, and folks can get up in each other's grills. They can be in each other's personal space. You might be walking with a person that you are counseling, uh, and then the abortion escort tries to get in your way. All of those things are just the, the basics of everyday life. Uh, when you are, again, dealing with an aggressive abortion escort, none of that is a federal offense.

There's no reason for the federal government to be involved. You're not trying to block an abortion clinic or stop people from doing abortions. Uh, and so this is a, this is a step now that these charges on Mark sent a chill throughout the entire sidewalk counseling community across the country. Yeah. And even peaceful prayer people. I mean, look, you, you, you might be, um, there are plenty of folks that will pray right near the entrance, the Planned Parenthood. Well, well, if the abortion escort gets up in you, you know, and starts trying to elbow your, you know, whatever, and you hip check 'em, you know, get outta my space. Well, all of a sudden are, are you gonna be, you know, 10 years in a federal pen penitentiary? Yeah.

Yeah. And then the FBI raids so whole is scarce. Yeah. And the fbi, See, on top of that, you're saying that no charges were brought, local authorities said, Hey, this is just, and first of all, this guy created the event, the, the 72 year old. He created this event. And yet somehow now Mark is the one responsible. No one brings any charges. And then suddenly, what, 10 months later, the FBI raids his home.

Yeah. And, and I don't mean to grandstand, I, I mean, I, I'm not grandstand, but holding the floor a little too long, Craig. But no, the story is just so, uh, it's so compelling. Well, love Mr. Love then files, he tries to get the Philly d to prosecute prosecutor won't touch it. Right. He then files a private criminal complaint. That's something you can do in Pennsylvania. Uh, a few states allow it. Well, and so that proceeds, and there's a, a continuance granted cuz Mr. Love doesn't show up to court. And then we go to the next court date, He doesn't show up again. And on that one, you know, our lawyer for Mark said, Hey, this has gotta be a must be tried. Cuz you know, you don't drag people into the court process and not with some finality, you can't just keep dragging a guy back in.

Well, they come in for the third time, the local da, who I guess now with the private criminal complaint, they still work on the case. Somehow the local DA says, you know, the assistant district attorney says, Oh, we want another continuance judge. And the judge looks at it, says, Nah, dismissed, throws it out. Okay. Um, and so that's where the matter should have ended. Right. And so that's what happened. Well then in May, Mark is out there at the Planned Parenthood. He is sidewalk counseling, praying. And, uh, federal agent walks up to him unmarked, uh, as I understand it, hands him a target letter which says, Hey, there's a grand jury looking into you for a violation of the face act, This freedom of access to clinic entrances act. And, uh, it says in the letter, uh, we want to talk to your lawyer. So he calls us, uh, our, we have a senior former federal prosecutor, uh, you know, been 15 years putting very bad people away, uh, down in Arizona in particular.

So he reaches out, Matt Heffron our guy, and, uh, makes two phone calls, then sends a correspondence, sends a, you know, communication where he lays out the relevant law. Said, Hey, just three years ago, the Thomas Moore Society won a case in the Eastern District of Pennsylvania where there had been a couple of physical altercations between a sidewalk counselor and an abortion escort. But it wasn't related to, you know, they weren't trying to stop people from doing abortions or what have you. So that was held not to be a federal violation. Right. And then we, so that was part one of the letter. Part two was, Hey, if you're gonna charge him, even though you have no case, well let us know. We will bring him in. So he'd send us a summons, is the way you do it in the federal system. We get nothing back until September 23rd when we get an email saying, we have your client in custody.

Wow. Uh, and you know, at that point, Mark was downtown in Philadelphia. He had been, uh, shackled to a table in the Marshall's office for four hours or so. We were finally able to get a lawyer into him, uh, and, and get him released that day on his own recognizance. Uh, so think about that. He was so dangerous that, uh, they had to go out to his house and pick him up. And we can talk about that raid. You know, the FBI sent 20 plus federal agents heavily armed with long guns, ballistic shields, battering rams. They send them to this guy's house. Uh, poor Mark and his family, you know, they live, they live out on kind of a farmhouse out in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. And there were 15 law enforcement cars covering his lawn as Ryan Marie's wife would tell it. Uh, you, you couldn't see a blade of grass.

And, you know, these guys are everywhere. Uh, they're pounding on the door, you know, Mark opens it at seven o'clock in the morning and, you know, they get him out there guns on him, you know, and then, you know, gun inside the home where his wife is there at the staircase holding back the children who are up at the top of the staircase, his seven children from 13 down to two, the kids are screaming and crying. Um, and, you know, they wouldn't even provide Ryan Marie the warrant at first. They said, We're taking him anyway. Finally, they finally give her the warrant. But this whole experience absolutely outrageous and reckless put, put the how family in exceptional danger.

Well, they're treating him like he's a terrorist.

Right. Right. I mean, drug lord mafia boss. Right. Trying to think why in the world would you do this? And, and this is the thing cuz we would present him. And, you know, we're, we're not, we're not just any fly by night law firm. And we had a distinguished former federal prosecutor working the case going, We'll bring him in there. There isn't a need for a single federal agent to be pulled off of investigating actual crimes, You know, much less. 20 plus. But here's the other thing. If they said, No, no, no, we wanna arrest him. They know exactly where he's going to be at the same time every Wednesday at the planned parent at the same place, they handed him the target letter.

Right.

They could have sent two agents, flash a badge and take him in right then.

Right.

They didn't have to drive out, you know, a couple hours outside of Philadelphia to their little farmhouse. I mean, this, this, the whole thing stinks. And the Congress, I'm very heartened that the Congress has decided to get involved with this Senator Chuck Grassley, Senior, senior senator, you know, very well respected. He had, he and about 10 other senators had signed a letter, uh, to, you know, saying, Hey, what happened here? Some very particular questions for the Attorney General. They did interviews of our attorneys and others to get some very detailed facts for the Attorney General. So we're really, um, I'm very heartened by the fact it looks like both the House and the Senator coming after this

Too. Well, let, well let, and I want to get to that. So, but at this point with how, and then Vaughn too, that another similar situation. What protections do they have? I mean, are, are they, is this, you said he's out on his own recognizance, so that's good news. So he's not, uh, wasting away in a prison cell right now, but this is sending a chill. We have, we have sidewalk clinics. We've just put a million dollar initiative together because we're a pro-life church. Our people are feeling the same kinds of fears, and we're exact, we're telling them, Don't be afraid. You have these protections, um, go out there and peacefully do the things that God would have you do and care for people. But that this sends a whole different message to them, doesn't it? And, and is this, how do we push back on this? Is it, is it first legally? Is that the, the way it has to has to happen?

Well, it, it legally is the way Yes. That is absolutely the first thing. So the example from the Obama doj, that's why I shared that. Mm-hmm. , we've gotta beat them in court. I will tell you, I mean, federal prosecutors have a 95 plus percent conviction rate. I mean, they don't lose normally when they bring these cases. Okay. So if we are able in Philadelphia to beat them, uh, it would send a, just a shockwave across the country and might, you know, hopefully keep send the Biden DOJ back stop, uh, prosecuting these peaceful people in this way. Yes. Yes. That's the whole, So that, that's number one. And, and to that end, we have hired, uh, for Mark, the best criminal defense lawyer in Philadelphia. He's one of the best in the country. And it's not cheap, but it's worth it since this is the first case, it is so prominent and it's drawn so much national attention. Um, and so we've, you know, and we've actually set up a website, defend life today.com, defend life today.com to, uh, for folks to get updates on that particular case and to support it financially.

Okay. But

That's, that's step one. But you know, we're, and, and we, we bring our entire Thomas Moore society team, which has a lot of experience defending these Face Act cases over the decades. Uh, so we bring that together with the best criminal defense lawyer in Pennsylvania. I mean, we are given, you know, 110% the best possible chance, uh, because he is actually innocent of these charges. So.

Well, it's incredible. I've, I've dug into a little bit of the particulars and, and this is just so outrageous. You can't imagine that this is actually happening in a free society. And I guess that's, maybe it goes to the Face act because one of the things that, you know, in my work and in my studies, there's this, this phrase called Delegitimate, where it, it's kind of a tactic where you don't really debate issues. You don't really debate, um, the particulars of one side or the other. You just delegitimate you actually demonize the, the other side. It seems to me that the Face Act did just that. I mean, because it, it almost criminalized peaceful protest in such a way that we don't even ask what did they do anymore? We just said, were they, were they there and did they do it? They're like terrorists, you know, take care of them.

And then that's how it's reported in the news. And so people say, Oh, these people must have done terrible, terrible, terrible things. Well, then you find out that all he was doing there, standing there with his 12 year old son defending his son from an arrogant, and we've been involved in these kind of protests. The other side comes and says vile, vile things, that it's almost like they're antagonizing, hoping you'll do something wrong. Well, should that face act be revisited? I mean, is that something when we talk to senators and congressmen, we say, Hey folks, uh, it seems to me that the, this Face act now is criminalizing law abiding citizens. And somehow the other folks who block, they block the roads, they block businesses, they take over cities, they don't get charged with anything. Maybe we should re-look at this. Is that the next kind of step too?

I, I think that is, that is a step. You know, the problem we've run into mean, you, you know, being in DC we we're at a place as a country because of the filibuster rule in the Senate. You can almost never change a substantive law on a controversial point. There's really, you just can't do it right now. So touching the Face act, trying to reopen it to, to at least narrow it a bit, we really, uh, you know, the, the, the way you'd do it from the political side is investigate the abuses. And to some extent then you are shaming the, the Department of Justice into, uh, being more appropriate in their charging, you know, of using this act. So if Yeah. The spirit of the, I have clients that have actually blocked the abortion clinic doors. Hey, it, you know, look, sometimes the conduct does, uh, it, you know, look it, you block the doors.

Yeah. You know what? Okay, you did it. So be it. Um, and that's what civil disobedience is about. You know, you know that you are violating the law in some capacity, but do we, do we throw you in prison for 10 years? Yeah. Uh, as if you have, uh, committed a, a grave crime, uh, you know, you've shot somebody or, or, you know, dealt fentanyl to people or something like that. No, of course not. And, and so that's really, that, that is probably your, your immediate term, really effective political, uh, way to go at it. But again, the, the other side is, uh, this, this legal angle and hoping like our, our case three years ago in Phil, you know, the Philadelphia, it's in the Eastern district of Pennsylvania, that that case three years ago established this precedent that, hey, the jockeying on the sidewalk and all that, that is not a Face Act violation. That's our legal work is really trying to cabin the, the, you know, this, this expansion they're trying to do of the Face Act and

Suppose

Yeah. Those are kinda the ways that you would, that we would deal with it. I would say just in this next, say six months to a year, that's where I would focus folks.

Okay. Well, again, for them to, for our listeners to, to, uh, get a handle on this, obviously start praying about this, supporting this, because this is a fundamental thing. I mean, I know how these folks work. They, they try to get these test cases, and then if the test case happens, then they can railroad all over the country. Well, this is a big one. This is one of those. If we can stop the Huns at the gate here, this would actually be very, very helpful. Where would they go, again, for more information on this so that they can understand what the real issues are here?

Right. So defend life today.com is gonna be a good place to go for this. And then, you know, you, you'd mentioned there's the other arrests related to the Nashville, uh, issues. And, and look, we, we just, we are gonna, we're gonna take 'em one at a time. Uh, and we are pushing back strongly, and you're seeing a great, uh, really rising up amongst folks who are, uh, of people of faith, uh, pro-life Americans, you know, folks that are more conservative on things or even just, you know, folks that don't like the government, uh, taking 20 or 30 federal agents down on some, you know, just a regular guy and, you know, at his house and putting his kids and family in danger. Uh, so, so we're, we're moving forward there. I have this dream though, that, you know, Mark, Mark will probably go to trial pretty quickly, you know, right after the first of the year that we get a not guilty there. That you've got a pro-life Congress that brings Merrick Garland, the Attorney General in front of him, you know, question him about why did they do this raid and why did they prosecute Mark? And I would love it if they'd bring in the how family, so that the Attorney General could literally apologize to them. Yeah. For the harm that the US government has done to that, that poor family, uh, and hopefully promise that they'll never do it again.

Yeah. And the preciousness of life means that the government can't determine that there's a life not worth living, uh, and then use its power to just to put people in these kind of boxes. And so to be people of life, that means even our enemies have purpose, and even our enemies have, uh, they're human beings and, and they have, they, there's dignity there. We're fighting for these things because these are foundational to a civil society, these kinds of cases. They're the fence at the cliff. And we, we, we've got to defend that space so that we can at least have civil dialogues, even with people with whom we disagree. Well, thanks for your work so much, Peter. We pray God's success for you, and we are gonna do whatever we can to be supportive of this. And, uh, so thanks again for being with us today. Hey, thank you, Greg. Great to be here. Thanks for tuning in today. To get to know our L C LDC work better, check out our website at L C R L freedom.org. Till next time, God bless you. Always. I'm Greg Sells. Have a great week.

You've been listening to Liberty Action Alert with Greg Seltz, Executive Director of the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty in Washington dc. This program has been brought to you by the Lutheran Center for Religious Liberty.