Shame With Dr. Gillian Bond

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And welcome to another edition of engaging truth. I'm your host pastor John Cain with us today on the program. We have, uh, Dr. Jillian bond. She is the director of deacons studies at Concordia seminary in St. Louis, Missouri. Welcome to the program, Jillian,

Thank you for, for having me on this afternoon.

Well, this is an exciting topic because I know that, uh, you wanna talk about, uh, specifically coping with Shane shame. Wow. That's a big, big topic. And I think it's probably a hidden topic for, for many people. Uh, why, why is shame an important issue?

It, I think that shame is important, partly because it affects a lot of people, partly because it can have really serious and partly because it is, as you just indicated all too often a hidden problem. I think a lot of times, people in general, um, and particularly I would include people in the church don't realize what it is and how big of an issue it is and how common it is.

So what kind of problem can it cause, and maybe you should maybe identify or define, uh, what you mean by Shame.

So what I'm talking about here, shame manifests itself in various ways, but what I'm talking about, what I'm gonna be focusing on here is really the sort of individual, so sense of shame, which is really a feeling of shame feel it's important to stress that this does involve feelings. It's not just a clearly thought out process. It's that kind of gut reaction kind of feeling that's involved as well. Um, but it's a feeling that, um, involves feeling worthless, often power us in given situations, um, rooted in a, a usually in, um, a fear of, or concern about how one is perceived by other people. Um, it can affect many things. It affects the ability to form proper healthy attachments with other, the people. It affects relationships in general and can have many other effects too. It can tie into, um, tends when it's not addressed over a long term. Um, it, it can also be a predictor for more serious things such as depression, um, despair, um, addiction, various kinds of other kinds of, um, issues such as, depending on the kind of shaming and I'll come back to different kinds of shaming in a minute, but other, uh, possible manifestations would include things like anorexia and bulimia, bulimia and so on. Um, and then of course also possibly suicide.

So as Christians, we're more commonly attuned to talking about sin and maybe the forgiveness of sins, but what about shame?

And that is you hit the nail on the head. There we are much more used as, as Christians to talking about sin and the forgiveness of sins. Now, obviously there is that there, there are times when guilt and shame go hand in hand, you know, if a person knows that they have have sinned and their conscience is troubling them, they may well feel shame, feel ashamed of what they've done. You know what I mean, and feel ashamed in that context or in terms of other people pointing out that, you know, what you did was not right. The actual, just real life consequences of sin, um, you know, can lead to certain kinds of feelings of shame, but what I'm really concerned about here, and what I, um, wanna emphasize is the kind of shame sense of shame that comes more from being shamed by others in different ways that are not tied to one's specific sins.

Obviously none of us is, is sinless only Christ is sinless and we are not him. I'm not saying that, you know, anybody that feels that there's anybody that feels shame or doesn't, that has no sin, we all do. But in the sense that it's, I'm, I'm focusing on shame, that's not the direct result of, of sin of particular sins. So, um, the person that feels like, um, that that has been, it has somehow been led to feel like they're not, they're not good enough in one way or another say, so maybe for example, um, in terms of performance in, at school or in athletics or something like that, you know, they try their best. It's not that they aren't trying, but that's just not the gift that God's given them and they're not performing as well as some others. And it's like, well, you know, you're a loser or you, you know, not smart enough, not good enough, not fast enough, not whatever, um, or perhaps their appearance, you know, not attractive enough, not thin enough.

And that ties into things like anorexia and so forth as well, um, or, um, can be all kinds of other things that can be rooted in terms of often other people really rooted in other people's problems, but that actually play out on the person that has been shamed as a result of those. So for example, um, you know, the child that grows up feeling like, um, somehow, because they were there, they, they just their existence, or, you know, if they had health problems, their health problems or something somehow ruined a parent's life, you know what I mean? It's like, we, we don't, we can't, it was not appropriate to forgive somebody for having been born or for having had ill health, you know, which they have no control over or for, you know, not having some, um, runway model kind of, you know, figure or something like that, or for, or for not being really athletically disposed or not being really good at, you know, this subject or that subject.

And you, you see, I mean, there's a whole range of different things that people can be shamed about. Well, that's just a few examples and to try and use, you know, forgiveness and absolutely in that sort of context really only reinforces the concept that there's something wrong with the person that they, you know, that, that thing that actually isn't a sin really is because then they're being forgiven for it or told that they given for it. And so it actually compounds the problem. And I think that that's something that sadly is often overlooked in, in, in the church. Um, I mean, obviously it's really important that we focus on Christ bearing our sins, but that's not all that he did. And that's, and sin is not, it's a huge problem, obviously if you know, but for, or would be, but for the salvation we have through him, but it's not the only big problem that's out there. And shame is another one.

So when you're talking about shame, I began to perceive that you're talking about a wide variety of maybe triggers from, from being events to all the way, perhaps being involved in some psychology and maybe depending on at what level a person is experiencing the shame, then, then maybe that would, uh, guide how you interact.

That, that certainly is, is an important thing to take into account. And, um, if you read, if one read people like, um, Renee brown or Kurt Thompson, for example, you know, that, um, talking about this, particularly the psychological aspects of it, that the kind of shame that we're talk talking about here, it's something that doesn't only involve say sort of like the rational thinking, but it in it's a deep, heated thing. It involves the various aspects of the, about neurological being, if you like, including the autonomic nervous system. And so on it kind of elicits fight or flight kind of response, which tends to lead people either to this, a growth generalization, but, you know, either to, um, the, the flight in, so that of separate and, and, you know, not form good attachments with people or, or just withdraw that kind of thing, or, um, potentially also, you know, fight or flight then to have sort of angry responses and, and, and other, you know, kinds of behavioral issues that can arise. There's various ways that, that people can react to some of the, some of the kind of issues that that will arise. So for example, for somebody who has been a victim of abuse, or who's suffering with something like anorexia or something like that, you know, I mean, they may very well also need to be referred for, um, professional care in the sense of, you know, psychology or, um, um, as well as spiritual care, but at the same time, the church can do a lot to help in addressing these issues.

So let's focus on that, what the church can do. What, what does the Bible tell us about shame?

Well, we first find shame rather the absence of shame way back in Genesis, too, when we, um, you know, as, as God created, um, Adam and Eve, you know, and the man and, and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed. And it's interesting that then in Genesis three after the fall, I mean, yes, there's the reference to the, the fig leaves for loin class, but it's not only that sort of like modesty because as they hear the sound of, of God walking in the garden, um, they hid themselves. Um, and when God calls out, you know, where are you and Adam responds, you know, I heard the sound for you in the garden. And I was afraid because I was naked. It's not just, oh, you know, it's sort of embarrassing or, you know, to be modest or whatever, but, you know, it's, I fear it's that basically fear presumably of, of that disrupted relationship with God, which of course is what's happened in the fall. Uh, um, and so shame is a di that kind of sense of shame. Yes. You know, I mean, it comes, it, it is part of what the serpent brought as it were instigated and into the world. It was sin and shame that ended basically. Um, but when we look at, um, what the Bible says, shame, uh, Lord Jesus not only bore our sin on the cross as if that wasn't a heavy enough burden, which obviously was a huge burden. Um, but he also bore our shame.

And it's interesting to me, if you look at, um, you know, like if you go back to Isaiah, uh, um, say, and I, Isaiah, you know, in the, the suffering servant and on, but the servant songs, you look at Isaiah 50, um, starting at, at, at, um, page six, I gave my back to those who strike and my cheeks to those who pull out the beard. I did not hide my face from disgrace and spitting, but the Lord God helps me. Therefore I have not been disgraced. Therefore I have set my face like a Flint. And I know that I shall not be put to shame because what people were doing to our Lord, you know, what he, you know, that's the prophetic, um, text is about, they were from the human perspective, they were shaming him as, I mean, as well as torturing and executing him, you know, but there was the whole shaming aspect as well.

Um, but it's God that helps. Um, and in his eyes, you know, that sort of that innocent suffering, if you know what I mean, there is no disgrace. Um, and then again, also in Isaiah 53, um, like starting at verse two for, he grew up before him, like a young clown and like root out of dry ground. He had no formal majesty that we should look at him and no beauty that we should desire him. And you think of these, these people that go through all of these torturous things to try and look according the way that they think is supposed to be beautiful or whatever. Well, if not being esteemed as beautiful, you know what I mean by the rest of, of mankind was not a problem for Jesus. Why should she be a problem for us? You know what I mean? Right. I mean, he's been there.

He knows what we deal with. And then it goes right on, he was despised and rejected by man. And that's really, um, and he was, he was the sinless one, you know, but he was shamed by men. In that sense, he knows what, we've, what we go, what people who are ashamed in that sense go through. Um, and death by crucifixion was designed not only to be agonizing, but to be shaming as well. That was part of the why it was done, why it was done the way that it was, you know, the person hung their sort of on public display and naked as well. Um, and, um, so it's like, you know, in, in Hebrews, uh, 12, two, um, you know, talks about looking to Jesus, the founder and perfe of our faith, who, for the joy that was set before, but sat before him endured the cross despising, the shame he bore the shame, but he didn't, it didn't master him. Um, so he has born our shame and he knows what we suffer and he doesn't abandon us to it.

So if we perceive that someone is, uh, dealing with this issue of shame, or maybe some of these are so that you brought up like, uh, fear or guilt or things like that, uh, how, how should we as the church walk alongside them?

Really great, great question. It's um, I think one thing, well, a couple of different things we can do, one is I think it would be helpful if the, if the church as a whole could talk more often about the fact that that Christ Bo our shame, as well as our sin, so that it help to encourage initially people to even think about opening up and, and you know, about the shame that, that they bear when they realize that, yes, this is a separate thing, and it's not just something they need to be forgiven for, which confirms that really it was their sin, even when it wasn't, if that makes sense. But also, um, to if, if there are folks in the church who are willing to, some of you have to build a relationship of, of, of kind of trust with some well to work with, to give spiritual care for people in general, but especially for somebody who's dealing with shame issues, because, um, trust is that sort of the trust that goes with good kind of constructive relationships and attachments is, is lacking a lot of times.

So, but to be EMPA, to have empathy, to listen, um, sort of active listening, you know, to not, not right away to sort of jump in and, and sort of be judgmental or whatever, even if there are things that you think that, yeah, maybe they didn't handle handle very well, but as soon as you jump right in with that, then they're going to shut down and not carry on and open up about it, but to make, to let them know that they're heard and that they're loved even through what they're, so what they're suffering through that God loves them. And that, and that we as Christians do as well. And that, um, just like Paul talks about in first Corinthians, you know, it's like the, you know, we're, the body of the church is the body of Christ and there are many members and one is not less important than another, no matter how they make, cuz they, part of that kind of shame is this view of most, you know, minimal if any, he self worth, but that actually every part of the body of Christ, you know, is valuable. Um, and to not let them kind of develop that sense of being heard and being appreciated for as the person that they are and that God appreciates them, you know, enough that Christ died for them and took their shade known himself.

I think in the church, we tend to use certain stock phrases that, that we learned that we learned, you know, that we heard and, you know, shame, I don't think is one of them. I don't think that's one that we have explored adequately, uh, for, for offering encouragement to, uh, people, what our congregations, right. We'll come back to our guest, uh, Joe Bond, just a moment. But first I'd like to point our listeners to our website for this radio program. If you go to E L M houston.org, uh, you'll find podcast recordings of our past programs, you'll find links to our YouTube phase, Facebook and Twitter pages also on Elm houston.org. Uh, you can ask us questions, uh, and you can also find ways to support what you're listening to, uh, your, uh, gifts to elm.org are tax deductible donations. And, uh, I'd like to point out that you're on the air host or all volunteers. So your donations go far to help us purchase air time to keep us on the air. We appreciate you, your listenership and your support now to our guest, uh, Jill, uh, can you point us to some resources or perhaps a way for our listeners to, uh, contact you if they have greater interest?

I would be very happy to talk with, to correspond further with anybody that that's interested in doing so, and if folks would like to email me, my email address is it's my last name and first initial B O N D G bond G CSL, first letters of Concordia St. louis.edu, uh, B O N DG, csl.edu. And, uh, then if we could either email or arrange to talk by zoom or, or whatever works best for, you know, the, for whoever would like to ask questions, there are other, um, places that one can look also to get some more background on this kind of thing. Um, bene brown has written quite a bit on, on shame and vulnerability and so forth. Um, and, um, Kurt Thompson also has, um, who's a psychiatrist has written some on, on, um, a Christian psychiatrist who has written some on actually addressing shame issues and particularly in terms of how that ties into the, on the neural networks and so forth, you know, and the structures in of the brain and nervous system. Um, but yeah, I'd be more than happy to talk with anybody, um, particularly in terms of how we can try and, um, become more proactive about addressing these things in the church. I would be very happy to talk with folks

If you would. Uh, we've talked about shame, fear and guilt, just a little bit. Uh, and, and we, we might have imagined what that looks like when things are not going perfectly, help us to understand what the end goal would be. If a person was trying to move from shame, what would they hope for? What's the, what's the target

Good question. Ultimately, um, it's a restoration of relationships. And so obviously the first and foremost of those is, you know, is, is restoration of, of the relationship with God, which if they feel that lack of self worth, they may, the person may well be struggling with whether, you know, even God could actually really love them. So that can, that can common and obviously really major problem. Uh, but also, um, there's ties into a lot of things, really feeling of peace or more integration of one's self, um, as an both just like as a, as a person and especially as a child of God. Um, and then also rela being able to have better relationships with other people to be able to, um, make, develop more healthy relationships with other people, um, and address it exactly what the goal is, is gonna depend some on the nature of the, the triggers that have set it off and the kinds of manifestations of the shame.

So obviously if somebody is potentially suicidal and addressing that is gonna be yeah, way up there in terms of the priority list, or, you know, if they've got, if it's a, if it's that sort of what sometimes referred to as body shaming. So that then there, for example, um, you know, anorexic or binge cheating and purging and that, you know, those kinds of things then obviously addressing that is gonna be way up in the list of priorities as well. Um, or, you know, it depends a bit on the, in somewhat on the individual situation. And that's where up front that active listening comes in to play so much, to get a sense of what it is that they're dealing with and how best to, to address it. Um, and say sometimes they, they may also need other person, if it's really severe, may need, you know, other professional care as well. But that doesn't mean that the church shouldn't be walking alongside in the process, cuz we should.

So if, uh, if we're looking for some inner peace, what, what can you tell me about, uh, finding that and where we might find that inner peace?

It's always going to be first and foremost in our Lord in Christ in the fact that he has promised never to leave us nor for sake us and that he than in the depths of our despair and sense of lack of self worth that he is with us, he's shed his blood for us, every single one of us, no matter how unworthy we may feel. We, we, our identity is that of being Christ of, of being a child of, of the, of heavenly father. Um, and, um, that supersedes any other labels that, uh, other people may have put on us or that we may have put on ourselves as being not fill in the blank enough, you know, not good enough, not beautiful enough, not whatever enough, you know what I mean, that, um, makes us enough and that that's it's, um, that we can rest in him.

We, um, he w and that he, he does know either like Christ has suffered firsthand, you know, the anguish of, of, of, of shame. He knows, um, very well, not only through being God, but through his experience as fully man as well. Um, what we deal with and he is with us in it. Uh, but then also in the church and absolutely the congregations should aim to be safe places where people who are dealing with problems like this well, where they, they will be safe and they can feel safe, you know, and not just be further shamed or, um, yeah,

What a tremendous thing it is that our God, uh, sent his only son Jesus to, uh, to make up for our broke and to bring us healing. And we're all in process. Nobody's got it together yet, but we will. And what a, a great aspect that is that we have, uh, what a future that awaits us of restoration and relationship with God. We hope that you'll come back and join us again real soon for another addition of engaging truth. Goodbye.

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