Rich Villodas pastors one of the most diverse churches in the United States. He’s also written a bestselling book titled, “The Deeply Formed Life.” In this conversation Host Pastor Matt Popovits and Pastor Rich discuss his new book and how we can move from surface level spirituality to a deeper connection with Jesus–a connection that can affect everything from how you view your sexuality, to racial injustice, and healing from trauma and pain.
Transcript
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Welcome to engaging truth. I'm your host, Matt Popovits. And with me on the program today is pastor Richa. He is the pastor at new life fellows ship in Queens, and he's the author of the new book, the deeply formed life. Pastor rich, thank you for joining us on engaging truth,
Matt. So good to be here. Uh, look forward to a good conversation.
Me too. I'm really excited to have you here, uh, for a couple of reasons. Number one, the book that you've written is wonderful and it's full of some really awesome insights for our listeners. Uh, but all also, I'm excited to, to share with our listeners, uh, about the church that you pastor, uh, the church that you pastor in, in Queens, New York, it is truly one of a kind. Uh, so, so tell us a little bit about new life fellowship.
Well, before I talk about new life, I have to say Matt, I, I, I actually think about you often, Matt, and here's why I live in Regal park, Queens, you pastor, uh, for a few years, Ingo park Queens. And so there is a supermarket key food supermarket, a couple of blocks away from the churches to pastor. So I passed by there often. And so, uh, I think about you a lot. So anyway, uh, in terms of our congregation, our congregation's 33 years old, I, I joined our church some 12 years ago. We are situated in one of the more diverse parts of the world. Queens in itself is very diverse. Half, uh, 50% of Queens is foreign born, but where, where we're at in, in Queens national geographic called our zip code at one point, the most diverse zip code in the world. And so we have to 75 nations represented in our church, 123 languages spoken in the neighborhood, um, to give you a sense of the neighborhood, you know, there's, you know, 20 options to take out $20 at the local ATM in terms of languages. And, uh, and so it's a very confusing and a beautiful place to be. And, uh, we have tried to serve people in the way of Jesus, uh, through our community development corporation, serving the poor, but trying to give people a robust vision of formation and discipleship and what it means to follow Jesus in this particular cultural
Moment. So let's talk about that robust formation and what it means to follow Jesus in this particular cultural moment. I like the way you phrased that, cuz it is a very particular cultural moment, you know, as we sit here and have this conversation, uh, we're in the midst of continued political turmoil, not to mention all the conversations that have been happening around race and justice and, and everything else. Uh, why is it important for, for followers of Jesus, uh, in times like this where everything's tumultuous and everything's just uncertain and crazy and you don't know what's gonna happen one day to the next, why is being deeply rooted spiritually utmost importance?
Yeah. You know, when, when I, I think about that phrase and what it means to be deeply rooted and deeply formed, uh, when I, when I wrote that book, I was trying to offer what I believe is, uh, a fresh paradigm for this particular moment of what it means to follow Christ. Now in our congregation, we have five particular values that have shaped who are, uh, over the years and those five, uh, are those five values really are what I write about in the book. And so just to give you a sense of it, I write about contemplative rhythms, what it means to slow down our lives, to cultivate life with God. I write about racial, uh, justice. I write about interior examination, you know, what mean to not cut ourselves off from our inside, but to, uh, have a life of interiority. I write about sexual wholeness and what does it mean to, uh, incorporate our spirituality and our sexuality as well as our missional presence?
You know, what does it mean to live out in the world as people who were work for justice and mercy and compassion, it's often the case that there is, uh, a formation com compartmentalization that happens in the church and with Christians. And if you hear honking in the back mat, that's wearing Queens. So, you know,
Uh, and so we're trying to hold these things together. And the image that I give is, uh, a couple of years ago, I went out to the redwoods in, uh, in California. And the central image of the book is that the, the Redwood trees have a root system that enables these trees to soar high into the sky. And while their roots go somewhat deep, it's not really that necessarily, but the, the root system that they are attached to that enables them to grow up high. And for me, it's how do we hold all of these areas together, not in the perfectionistic way, but in saying to follow Christ in this world means we must hold together. Lots of pieces that are often segmented, separated, or seen as optional.
Yeah. It's, I mean, it's often the case and, and I've found this in, in, in my own life as a follower of Jesus, that there is this kind of intellectual, um, understanding of what I believe that's disconnected from the way in which I'm actually like living my life and the decisions I'm making. It's almost as if I put a fence around these things like, you know, sexuality or finances or how I'm RA decisions I'm making about my kids. And I keep those things kind of cordoned off from all these things. I say that I believe about Jesus. One of the, one of the statements that you make, you know, in, in, in the book is, is that there's this, this troubling reality that that believers can be deeply committed to being Christian without being deeply formed by Christ. And I know you've talked about this already just a little bit, but if we could continue to highlight the difference between being committed to being a Christian and being deeply formed by Christ, what, what are some of the differences between those two
Things? Yeah. I, I mean, when I talk, when I talk about that first part of being deeply committed to being Christian, I'm really talking about the, the cultural ways that we identify and understand Christianity, uh, that, um, that is not necessarily wrong, but in a, in and of itself, if we're gonna use that as the, the means by which we base our relationship with God is gonna be very troubling. And so whether it is a particular way of behaving, whether it is a particular way of speaking in the world, we often, uh, we use the symbols, we use particular behavior patterns and say, this is what it means to be a Christian. And, uh, as opposed to saying to, to be deeply formed by Christ is to truly open oneself to the life, transforming message of the gospel and allowing Jesus to enter into spaces, all of the spaces of our lives that we, uh, typically don't allow him to.
And so at new life, for example, I say, we should have fine in the front of our building that says enter at your own risk when you come in here, because we are going to invite you to open up space in your life, in all of your life to allow Christ to touch and heal and form and transform. Uh, but it's, it's easy just to go through the motions of, I'm going to church, I'm reading the Bible from time. I'll say a prayer here and there, as opposed to saying, I'm gonna open myself up to Christ and what it means to follow him in this particular moment, with all the complexity and confusion there in. So, uh, one is often based on the surface here, the, here are the things that I'm doing. The other is really, uh, beneath this surface, allowing Christ to touch some of those areas that are often shut off from the world, from ourselves and from God.
So, so, so that, that phrase beneath the surface, it, it reminds me of an image that, that you went shared with, with me in our congregation, we invited you in to do some teaching. You shared the image of, of, of an iceberg. And it was, uh, it was really powerful. And, and I, I believe you talked about how we, we usually deal with the stuff that's above the surface, but then there's this whole big thing beneath the surface. It was, it was a helpful image. And I, and I think that's part of what you're talking about with the deeply formed life. Could you touch on that a bit?
Yeah. When I think about that image, I mean, I, from time to time on, on TNC here, I don't know where things are like at Houston, Houston, but in New York city on TT, they play Titanic a lot for whatever reason they play Titanic a lot. And so I, I find myself watching Titanic a lot, and I remember seeing it couple years ago, uh, uh, you know, watching it again and was struck by the contrast on, on the ship where, uh, you know, on the upper decks of the ice of the Titanic, you know, there's opulence, abundance, all of that there. And then the Titanic hits an iceberg, and we see this contrast on, on the ship where on the lower decks, there's chaos, there's fusion, there's all, it's much different. And so that's one image that I think about with the iceberg, but along those lines, yes, the iceberg is 10% of the iceberg is visible.
Uh, 90% of the iceberg is not visible, uh, roughly speaking and Christianity is not simply about that. 10% of behavior modification. Christianity is about what does it mean to open up myself and the deepest parts of my being in terms of my fears in terms of my trauma, in terms of how I understand the world in terms of thinking deeper than the black and white ways that I tend to try to, uh, solve the problems. And so we have a political crisis right now, racial crisis going on in the world, which is nothing new. Uh, we could either look at it from a very superficial level, or we can take the time to examine deep down what is really fueling the antagonism and the, the, the Stripe, uh, the deeply formed life is essentially about doing that slowing down our lives to give access to God, to discern God, but to do it from a deeper place, not just from, uh, a place of shallowness, but from a, a place of significant depth. So
You, you talk in the book about different, like healthy, spiritual rhythms that people can incorporate into their life to, to do that deep work, to do that work of integrating the, the, the gospel into the deepest parts of ourselves. Um, so, so what are, what are some examples of some of those healthy, spiritual rhythms that you talk about? Talk about in the book that, that we should be open to considering in our own life
Of faith? You know, I think of one in a lot of, just a moment that we're in right now, um, in one of the chapter, does I write about interior examination and the importance of looking within that? It's often the case that we use God, uh, to run from God and we use God to run from ourselves. And so how do we live with a, uh, kind of compassionate self confrontation, uh, especially in times of high anxiety and we're in a moment of high anxiety right now. Um, the conversations that I'm having with people within my church or outside of my church have fueled lots of anxiety. And, uh, I think about this is an opportunity whenever comes to the surface, it is an opportunity for transformation. And one of the, one of the things I teach, uh, whenever anxiety comes, especially when there's something that we do that produces anxiety is I give a very simple five step process here.
And it's, it goes as simple as this, uh, based on five questions, what happened? One of, I, what's the story I'm telling myself, what's the gospel say? And what's the counter instinctual act that's required in this moment. Hmm. And so, for example, I remember sending out something on social media and a nationally known pastor, send me a, a message on Instagram. And I felt embarrassed that this person, it wasn't, it wasn't a bad email, but it was a correction. And I felt so embarrassed and the anxiety levels ran up. And, but I've been, I was exploring these questions and it was essentially what happened. Okay. Some, a nation known person, um, confronts me on something. What am I feeling? Deep shame. What's the story I'm telling myself. I'll never be the kind of leader that I want to be. What's the gospel say, God uses broken, failing people.
Uh, and what's the counter instinctual act that I needed in this moment, why I needed to now externalize my own anxiety and fear to someone in a safe space. I it's simple as, as that there, and I, of course, it's, it's not simplistic, but I think it's pretty simple there. So that's one in terms of our anxiety. Another really is the practice of, of silent prayer. And I truly believe in a world that's marked by verbosity and lots of chatter and tweets nonstop. Uh, we would give ourselves the gift of being silent in the prayer presence of God for extended periods of time. And when we are silent in the presence of God in this way, where the goal of prayer doesn't become transactional, meaning I'm not praying to get something, but I'm praying to be with someone. I think if that can, uh, begin to, uh, shape the way we pray, I think it'll shape the way we're able to be present with people. And so I, I teach a lot about silent prayer and opening ourselves to Jesus in ways that are not based on what I can get out of it transactions, but to simply the exchange of presence. And so those are a couple of, of the practices that come to mind that I think we sorely need, uh, in this particular moment, we're in,
You know, prayer, prayer is one of those things that it's kind of like exercise. Everybody knows they should, but then a whole lot of excuses get in the way and, and people even bring it up. And I think, I think people instantly feel, uh, a lot of guilt. Like I know, I know I really should understand what that's about. I really should do more of that. Obviously you you've taught a lot about this. You, you practice this in your daily life. What, what are some of the things that get in the way of having a, a prayer life for people?
Yeah, I think one of the things that get in the way is we expect prayer to always be exciting and wonderful and get good feelings. And so, as opposed to normalizing boredom in prayer, that that's probably the biggest obstacle that people have. Uh, and I think to grow in prayer means we have to normalize boredom. And basically what that means is that for the vast majority of the time, prayer is uneventful. You don't don't really see anything happening in the moment. And it's on often in retrospect, you know, so in Kard said, I live life forward, but I understand life backwards. And I think it's often in retrospect that we see, wow, God has been meeting with me. God has been changing me. I am experiencing some form of healing, but it's hard to see it in the moment. And, and so one of the things I say is you must normalize boredom.
If you're going to grow in your relationship with God in the same way that all of our, uh, relationships are not marked by ecstatic moments. You know, I'm having a conversation with my wife before this, and I'm not feeling any goosebumps, but we're where we're moving towards each other in communi
You mentioned, you mentioned in the book, the, the difference between what, what you're doing and, and, and who you, who you're becoming there, there is, there, there tends to be a focus in our lives, like what we're producing and what we're doing in the activity of our lives. But, but the, but the focus to this book is that God wants to, to make us into someone, right? Yeah. Like, like he's up to, he he's, he's deeply forming us. Formation means that, that there there's a process we're in where we are. We are, we are becoming something. So, so, so give us a glimpse, if you will, of, of who it is say toward the toward end of this formation journey we, we are. And, and, and what are some of the, what are some of the, what's some of the fruit that one might hope to see some of the characteristics one might hope to see in their life as a result of formation?
I, I think ultimately for the Christian, you know, I think about Paul, what he says in, in, in Galatians when he's talking to the church, Jenny says, I am in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you. That's what Paul was agonizing over. Yes. I, I, I am struggling. I'm in the pain of child. I want Christ formed in you at the end of the day, the deeply formed life is not simply about doing a practice here or there. Not about praying more. Ultimately the goal is Jesus Christ being formed in us and his life, the fruit of the spirit, what we see in the sermon on the Mount, uh, and, and fundamentally, uh, are, are we loving well, um, I, I think that is the core of what the deeply formed life is. And so whether we're talking about race, whether we're talking about our bodies and sexuality, whether we're talking about justice, whether we're talking about our own emotional life, the question is, are we being oriented towards love, love towards God, love towards our neighbor out of, and, you know, out of loving ourselves, that is the goal. And it's fundamentally the life of Christ being formed in us. So I'm not just here for a practice. You are there or reading the BI. I, I, I want the life of Jesus to be formed in and through me and through everyone who calls upon the name of that is the goal of a deeply formed
Life. And in being formed by Jesus, uh, or into the image and likeness, uh, of Jesus, people who are experiencing that formation, we're not gonna fit neatly into certain at the end of that process or in that process fit neatly into certain cultural political, right. And so, and, and part of what we're seeing in our, in our country right now is that there are many people of faith who believe that following Jesus looks like being a part of a particular political party or, or, or following Jesus means means living in a certain living in this precise and particular way, or, or having this particular, their cultural expression. But, but, but really part of what I hear you saying, correct me if I'm wrong, rich is that as we're formed by Jesus, there there is, um, there's dis there's a distinct person. Who's gonna come out of that. Who, who doesn't fit neatly into any of these worldly boxes. And so you be ready to kind of stand out or stick out. Right?
Absolutely. And when I think about the political moment that we're in, you know, um, I've written along the lines that, you know, the church and Christians of course are, are not to be found on the left, right. Or the middle of the political spectrums. Often the time the case that we say, I just I'm in the middle. We're not even the middle. Uh, we, we are to be a speech issues of its own kind. Yeah. Uh, confounding left, right. And middle and living from the center of God's life. So to follow Jesus means you're never gonna fit neatly in the categories of the world. And the, the faster we get there, the better it is for the witness of the church, the witness of the kingdom of God, uh, that if we're not confounding left right, and middle on a regular basis, we're probably not being faithful to Jesus.
Rich, your book is, is impacting people in a powerful way. Um, but, but I'm sure that along the way to you writing this, uh, that there, there were, there were some books, some resources that really were transformative to you. What, what's one book that you read along the journey of your own formation that was really, really helpful?
Hmm. That's a great question. Uh, I, I mean, I remember being a, uh, college student. I became a Christian at 19 years old. I'm 41. Uh, so around 21 years old, I read a book from Henry now and the return of the prodigal son. And, um, you know, he writes about the elder brother, the younger brother and the father as really metaphors of the spiritual life. So now ins book, N L U w E N now. And, uh, that was a significant read for me. Um, did you Bon Hoffer's book the cost of discipleship and Bon Hoffer's one of my heroes, uh, you know, he's writing about the sermon on the Mount, in that book there. So, so that book was truly significant in my life as well. Um, you know, the sermons of Dr. King, his, his work strength, you know, the strength to love is a significant, um, has resonated in my soul for many years. So, uh, those are a few of, um, the books, Thomas Merton's book. Uh, I, I, I tend to glean from many of the, in the contemplative tradition because I think they're able to see the world beyond the categories that we often project, they, they see with a different kind of wisdom. So, uh, some emerge. So those are, there are a few that come to mind, which we've
Got just, uh, just under a couple minutes left. Um, I, I'm certain, there's somebody who's, who's listening to our conversation right now, and maybe they've got some ex with Christianity. Um, maybe they've got, um, you know, some, some, some faith, uh, in them, but they are, they, they are burnt out when it comes to their faith. Uh, maybe they would say their, their faith is feeling just kind of frustrated dead or, or, or dry. Um, what, what what's a word of, of, of, of gospel, of encouragement, uh, of hope to someone who's spirituality doesn't feel like it's forming them, but it feels like it's a, uh, kind of a desert wasteland
For them. Yeah. Uh, my encouragement would be something along the lines of this. Um, whether you feel close to God or not, whether you feel spiritually satisfied or spiritually dry, your feelings have nothing to do with how proximate and close God is to you. And so God is always moving towards the world in love. We see that most profoundly in Jesus Christ. And so, um, you might not be able to feel it, uh, but God truly is near. And the invitation of faith is, uh, to welcome that whether you're, you know, to, to transcend and move beyond the feelings, because our feelings will always deceive us, but God is near to us moving towards the world in love and, uh, opening his presence to us in ways that, uh, move beyond our good deeds, our bad deeds, uh, this gospel truly is good news for, uh, mercy, grace and compassion. So if you're feeling spiritually dry, even in that feeling, God is quite close to you. He's Manuel
That's right. The book is the deeply formed life. The author is pastor rich Vallas, and he's also the pastor at new life fellowship in Queens. We're so thankful that he was able to spend some time with us here on the show today. Rich, thank you so much for your time. Thanks
For having me, Matt. I'll be thinking about you Ingo park
Queens here, please say hi to Rigo park for Mell. What a wonderful, wonderful neighborhood that is, man. And thank you for listening. Uh, be sure to join us next time, same time, same station here for engaging truth.
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